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Hi guys, this is to anyone using Proteus VSM and/or PCB design software. I am looking at buying this but have a question. Do you know if I need the Advanced simulation option? I realize no one knows my needs, maybe a better question is who has it or not.
Well yeah, tell us What you really looking for, there's by far better product on the market than Labcenter one.
Are you looking for a PCB software or what?
Well I started out just looking at the SIM side of it. Seems pretty nice to be able to sim circuits and code as a design. Then while surfing their site I realized I could get a nice integrated package to go from idea to PCB files.
But I have not ordered anything yet, so Steve please let me in on yuor favorite!
I never found any trusty sim software for Microcontrollers, Proteus being the worst each and every time their sale representative spam my e-mail box with their sh*tty Demos... but every time, I said.. OK i'll try it.. it failed everytime with some really simple test so I wouldn't recommend it unless it is tax deductible for you ;) (Woohoo, once again I'll make friend with that one, like I care :D )
You want the truth, use real and true components with a simple USB/Serial terminal or ICD (if you know, agree and understand their limitations), period. You're brain and knowledge are going to like it, mentaly, it is better than anything else! Invest the cash you would have wasted in Sim in parts and equipment, that will last.
PCB software, Eagle seems to be pretty standard. I found it a tad harder to move on Eagle than on other while testing them though. Must be the over 15 year background with PCAD. No regret.
Conclusion: I'm not a good reference for sim, but... good luck. Let's see what the other will suggest, let see the fame goes down from the clouds above and see my post being edited or deleted for sanity purpose :D
Thanks Steve. I have been using ICD and real components for about 14 years now. Also have been using the free software and services of Express PCB.
I guess I am looking for a little more convience. I realize nothing will take the place of actual parts and brain.
Are you planning on etching or machining your boards?
No Dave, I have them made. Its Just SOOO much better then when i made them myself years ago. Of course, I guess if I went back to that it would be easier (and cheaper ?) to prototype that way. Hmmm....
Home made pcb is still good for small production and/or proof on concept, but yes you need to play a little bit with chemicals and stuff like that. Home made SMD, double side PCB is not a problem. I still do it here, then once I'm sure everything's o.k I go for the outsource.
Does ExpressPCB software allow you to export to gerber or you need to stick with their service only? Beauty of third party one, is the ability to generate standard gerber format so you can have your PCB made everywhere. Some place even accept Eagle files directly, not only generated gerber ones.
Express PCB is strickly stick with their service. Mind you their service is good. I have never had any problems with it.
Everyone probably already knows my oppinion of Proteus, but I'll say it again.
It's totally awesome. Best SIM I've ever seen. I'll never be without it again, unless I quit programming PIC's.
I just recently started using ARES (the PCB part) at work, and I've never made PCBoards so easily. It was actually fun for once. I always hated doing PCB's before.
It isn't exactly cheap, but if you can afford it, I would recommend it above anything else.
And NO, you don't need the "Advanced Simulation" stuff.
The real strength of Proteus is the simulation of your code in a microprocessor.
The analog parts work, if your design is good. Out of spec designs give results you wouldn't see in real life, so it's not a "Proof of concept" if you don't have a good design to start with.
It is invaluable for debugging code though.
Especially when you're debugging other people's code. :)
Around nine months ago I purchased my first cnc mill. Never again to use chemicals. For prototypes and small runs it is great. When I learn more about machining, jigs and fixtures it may even be good for relatively large runs. No silks though..Quote:
Originally Posted by cncmachineguy
For home made pcb's look also at http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/
I liked very much the idea of having etching with a sponge and a few drops of etchant fluid.
Ioannis
@Dave, I would love to see pics of your mill! :) Also, mill size, speed and feed. Have you tried cutting any solder mask's? I saw someone doing that on you tube with some .005 brass I think. Seems like I remember them holding it down with 3M or some other spray glue.
@Ioannis, That is a GREAT link! I think I have read the entire site, and I must say, it looks like a wonderful technique. Still unsure on solder mask and the via's sound a bit cumbersome. but for prototyping, sounds like fun.
@Darrel, Thanks for jumping in and carrying the flag for VSM! Without the advanced sim stuff, are you able to watch outputs like on a scope? So being able to compare timing between signals and such?
Oh yeah, lots of test equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by cncmachineguy
4-ch. O-Scope (DSO)
32-ch. Logic analyzer
Frequency counter/timer
I2C debugger
SPI debugger
Voltmeter
Ammeter
Pattern Generator
Signal Generator
Virtual Terminal
And you can have multiples of each one. Try putting 4 O-scopes on your workbench. :)
More test equipment than I could ever afford in real life.
RS232 ports connect to real COM ports.
Sound devices use the PC speakers.
Virtual ATA hard drives.
Stepper Motors
Servo Motors
LCDs
GLCDs
Switches, keypads
LED's, LED matrix
RTC's, EEPROM's, 7400 TTL series, 4000 CMOS series chips.
And if you're old enough ... Thermionic Valves (Tubes)
You can run multiple PIC's, each with a different program, at the same time.
It's just Waaaaay Toooo Coool!
I'm old enough to know these are the glowing orange things that used to make the TV have to "warm up" before watching! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrel Taylor
Darrel Thanks for helping with this decision. I am sure I am going to pull the trigger for this. My "bench space" is low, So this is a great idea!!
I'm with Daryl on the sim... I've been using the vsm for several years, and love it. The advanced stuff is more for calculating noise in audio ckts and such. Using Isis has cut down on development time a lot, and I can't imagine what Mr. E is complaining about. Their models are very accurate--sometimes MORE accurate than the hardware. (i.e. designed with no batch-specific errata.)
I used Eagle prior to switching to Ares. I switched because I figured it'd be nice to have just one cad package, and Eagle had a few things that really irked me. Well, Eagle fixed those things right when I bought Ares, and I'd have stayed with it had I known more.
When you sim a PIC, you typically don't sim the full ckt--you put in primitives, and stuff like that so it will sim at full speed. Full analog slows it down a LOT, so you end up with two schematics (or one that's a lot bigger and messier, with some excluded from sim and some excluded from pcb) doing it this way. As far as layout goes, Ares isn't quite up to the power of Eagle. They both have annoying quirks, but Eagle is a bit more powerful...although Ares is slowly catching up, and it is nice having just one forum to read. Oh, yeah... Eagle has a LOT more part libraries, too, but they are significantly easier to make in Ares, and a lot easier to edit too.
So, now that I have it, I'm not about to go back to Eagle...but had I known then what I know now I'd have stuck with Eagle. I like its precision and power, but it's harder to learn.
That's my 2c.
My mill is a Fireball V90. I replaced the stock bed with 1/2 inch aluminum plate milled flat to match the gantry. I run between 15 and 30 inch per minute depending on the part. Using a 30 degree point I can do 44 pin TQFP parts on half ounce copper.
I do not have any pictures with me.
Hi, Bert
Just my two cents about sims ...
I sometimes use Proteus ... sometimes Multisim 11 ... tried VBB 4.2.x
Works quite fine - not perfect - for all digital work ( Processor simulating ! ), but ALL are really awful when you try to mix analog signals and digital ones ( same with 7400 or 4000 logic for digital ! ).
I can give you numerous files to prove it !!!! ... : Discrete boards work fine for years, sims never could run it, even badly.
Do not talk about close loop circuits nor ...
Also add sims do not take too much into account the config settings of the processors.
So, a sim running project NEVER is a guaranteed " live " running project.
I'd make an exception for Microchip MPSIM ... I consider it a real good tool to simulate PICs ... but not able to take into account any external components ...
Fine to adjust tricky timings, i.e.
Another exception for Flowcode ... ( Ok, it's not BASIC ! ) - limited, but " not so bad "
and the last one for Cypress Psoc Express ( looks to be obsolete and left aside now ...) - that's not Basic nor Pics !!! -
so, I'd say ...
" + 100 with Steve ... " ...
For a PCB design suite ... I Use ULTIMATE V 5.72 ... the glorious ancestor of NI Multisim/Ultiboard.
I think the very best design suite ever sold, even if there are some little bugs from here to there ( once known ... and avoided, everything fine ).
but no more sold : last release was sent in ...1999 !!!
I paid my " Student unlimited " version ... 300 US $ !!!
Alain
Attachment 5049^^ this!
An ideal sim/pcb package, say All-in-one electronic software would have the ability to do the schematic entry, Sim it, then produce the PCB and THIS.. regardless of it's complexity. I think you can do most of it with Proteus package, but the sim ability is way to limited and yeah, if you mix some analogue works in, unless you have a 19,238 core CPU machine, it works sadly when it doesn't crash.
MPSIM, MultiSim, Proteus, Mindi, LTSpice name it, all of them do some decent work, None are perfect, some have better potential, but none satisfy my need or expectation. I understand why using it, it is appealing, "it's sexy on screen", it may save many prototyping hour, can even make your plane/taxi/bus trip shorter. The idea is good, it just need few more years again I guess. In meantime, real parts and a Serial/USB terminal (or LCD), ICD do the job.
Bert,
I'm with Steve and Alain on this one. Many years ago I used PSpice a lot when I was in school. I still use it sometimes but only when I need to know the ins and outs of any circuit. It is a lot easier to run a sim to find out some values in the circuit than to calculate currents, voltages, etc. Analog and digital circuits don't mix well in this simulator. So, I prefer the "breadboard simulator". I have many breadboards laying around in my office, so when I want to test a circuit I think it is more reliable to do it this way.
Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by mackrackit
I found this cool video about a Fireball V90 demo. How do you trasfer the gerber files to this machine :confused:? Using V-tabs you might be able to make many boards in the same run. It would be cool to see a video of your machine creating PCB boards :).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kClfw...layer_embedded
Here is a short vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPPhCjk7LKY
The finished board can be seen here.
http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/cont...USB-SD-LOGGING
I use KiCad for schematics and board layout. I save the board as a DXF so I can bring it into a CAD (Design CAD) to add stuff like mounts or to nest parts together. Then CamBam is used to to make the G code. EMC2 runs the machine.
I am still pretty new to CNC stuff so I have some fine tuning to do, but it seems to work well.
Hey guys, thanks for the insight! I went ahead and bought the software as for me it seemed the pros outweight the cons. I hope to enjoy the software as much as Darrel does, but only time will tell. The PCB design already seems it will pay for itself.
@Dave, thanks for the info on the V90. I have been thinking about a small mill for some time. That looks like a pretty nice system. BTW, if you want/need any info on CNC machining just ask, I've been in this business for about 18 years now. Happy to lend a hand.
Thanks Bert.
The biggest problem so far was getting the bed level with the gantry. Now I think a floating cutting head would be the best way to go. Along with a vacuum table.
Vac tables are really cool. Just remember a shop vac doesn't really pull any vacuum. I measured it once and it got to maybe 1 inch of mercury.The best is if you cann afford a true vacuum pump Gast brand is really good. next best thing is a vacuum generator. They run from compressed air and will get 29 inches with a good seal. Downside is there is now a great deal of flow.
The clamping force boils down to this: ((vac in inches)/2)*surface area in inches. so for instance: 4x6 card is 24 in^2 with a vac of 29, you get 29/2=14.5*24=348 lbs of force. Sounds like a lot, but keep in mind when milling all the forces are side forces.
but you can quickly see why the shop vac won't work it would have 12 lbs of clamping force!!
Thanks again Bert. I made a note of your calcs. Looks like the vac table could end up costing more than the mill...
Good, keep user posted here, sure enough there's a ton who also want to hear about it and how you manage the debugging to work with PBP.Quote:
Originally Posted by cncmachineguy
Some good advices over there I guess:
http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/show...6303#post96303
If you already have compressed air, the generators are pretty cheap, 30-60 dollars. If not then they can get pricy to set up. I've used this in the shop for a vac jig:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#vacuum-generators/=aj7hr9
part number : 41605K14
But I think double sided tape may work just as well for what you are doing. :)
Cheaper than I thought. Looks like I will be ordering one.
The problem with double sided tape is the thickness, it is not consistent. For through the hole stuff it is fine, but for SMD a thousandth or two makes a big difference. Super glue works "OK". Either one is slow. So for the one or two offs it is doable... any kind of production....
But it is still better than the chemical solution.
Thanks again Bert!!!
I posted this on the labcenter forum, but after 3 days, still no love. All you folks are much more responsive so I thought I would ask here.
As a brand spanking new user of ISIS and ARES and VSM, I am stumped on my first circuit. I need to use 2 IC's, neither of which are in the library's. First is a MAX3311, second is a TD62783AP. Now I can create these for the schamatic and PCB purpose, but how should I go about Simulating my circuit? Should I just put something in thats close (like a dual RS-232 driver for the 3311). Or do I create them as I know how, but somehow leave them out of the SIM?
Thanks for any help on this NON-PBP question
Your best bet is to use a similar replacement. To make a new device will require an NDA with Labcenter and intimate knowledge of SPICE.
The Labcenter forum is mostly professionals, so there is very little activity on weekends. Also, they won't give support until you "prove" you are a real customer, and not using a demo or pirated copy.
Thanks tenaja. I kinda figured I would just need to not sim thoses parts. Won't really matter, just wanted to see if I was missing something.
As for the "other" forum, I have proven my willingness to pay for the software, as such have the proper label as "professional bla bla bla". This I find very funny as I clearly am not. Maybe in a couple years, but not now.
I was giving them the benifit of the weekend, but then as I saw posts this morning, I thought I would just post here instead. With happy results :)
Just an update. So far I am very happy with the proteus software. It proved invaluable to sorting out the logic needed to get my home switches working correctly. And the PCB side of things is just awesome.
As long as the limitations are kept in mind, using it parallel with an actual board is just the cats meow!
Check me off as a happy customer :)