Ok, pgc on oscilloscope peaks at 5V or so in reg intervals, pgd also active, mclr is at 14 volts during programming, programmer verifies, ceramic resonator is resonating. Stuff is going in that black box just nothing out of it. I have also tried changing the chips, port numbers, used a 16F84, 16F88, 12F675. I have even changed the breadboard. What else can I do?