Heated Debate... Features and Updates and Things...

[OXIMBIT]

Sorry about this look away if your sensitive
As I know a lot about the way Pbpro works and it's weakness I decided to write a little test code to show the differences between my compiler and Pbpro

Below is a little bit of code and here are the statistics

Pbpro
16f877 1068 words vars 25
18f452 1798 bytes Vars 27

Another basic compiler
same code
16f877 653 words Vars 11
18f452 920 bytes Vars 8

Using the better data handling by changing "this is a long message" to CStr my_message and adding
my_message: CData "this is a long message"

16f877 399 words Vars 11
18f452 694 bytes Vars 9

Now turn the optimizer to level 6

No cdata
16f877 593 words Vars 11
18f452 848 bytes Vars 8

With Cdata
16f877 339 words Vars 11
18f452 622 bytes Vars 9

So just to recap best against best

Pbpro
16f877 1068 words vars 25
18f452 1798 bytes Vars 27

The other compiler
16f877 339 words Vars 11
18f452 622 bytes Vars 9

Like I said if your happy with your compiler stick with it.

 
    bit1 var Bit
    Bit2 var Bit
    bit3 var Bit
        
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then 
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable1
    EndIf
    lcdout "this is a long message"

lable1:    
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then 
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable2
    EndIf
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable2: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable3
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable3:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable4
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable4: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable5
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable5:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable6
    EndIf   
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable6: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable7
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable7:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable8
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable8: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable9
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable9:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable10
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable10: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable11
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable11:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable12
    EndIf   
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable12:

[Dwayne]

Hello Bot,

Bot

Small Code!!!!!!

You've obviously never used another language.

<chuckle> You know what assume means don't you???

I programmed Philip Micrchips for many years. Assembly. Pure. Using UV light for 20 min on a 80C series MCU so that you hopefully erased the thing... else you couldn't reprogram it...had to re-erase it for another 20 mins.

I have tried other compilers...One thing you may have forgotten... Each compiler has its own way of optimizing code. One compiler may optimize a certain bit of code better than another... and vise versa...

But! you are correct...If the compiler suits you... use it!... and PBP is extremely reliable and bullet proof... I want 100 percent reliablity and small code. Not 99 percent reliability and a phone call from someone saying its not working correctly.

Dwayne

[mytekcontrols]

Wow! This place sure changed over night.

I think everyone makes great points from their own particular perspective. And bottomline as already stated, feel free to use what ever compiler or tools that suit you best. I also realize that it is a fundamental aspect of human nature to: resist change, hate starting over, or leave something behind. But sometimes you gotta do it, especially when the change will greatly ease your burden. However, constantly changing the tools you work with in order to have the latest, greatest thing out there, may be good for retailers, but a lot of times only results in lost productivity for the individual or company.

I remember this machinist guy I worked with several years ago who had the most awesome, gigantic, cadillac of tool boxes stuffed with every tool imaginable. No matter how many tools he had, he would always be the first guy standing outside when the Snap-on truck arrived, drooling over what other new tool he could buy. There was also this other machinist who worked at the same place, who had a tool chest with only a handfull of drawers, filled with a carefully selected assortment of what were obviously well used tools. I think you know where I am going with this story. Anyway, between these two different machinists, the one with the small assortment of tools, was also the one that could not only out produce the other individual, but also produced the highest quality products. Not to say this is always the case, and not that the opposite scenario most likely exists. But sometimes people really do get caught up in their tools, instead of what they're trying to build. I think Melanie has made a similar point, not only here, but in other forums as well.

Final point: We probably all still use hammers and manual screwdrivers, even though there are more advanced powered versions to be had (of which we might own as well, and use as well).

On a lighter note, I invite you all to see something very cool that is evolving over in this forum Embedded Strings in Your Code Space
This is really what this forum should be about. Making the best of what you have, and working together to make it even better.

[Dwayne]

Hello Michael,,

Michael

On a lighter note, I invite you all to see something very cool that is evolving over in this forum Embedded Strings in Your Code Space
This is really what this forum should be about. Making the best of what you have, and working together to make it even better.

This subject has already been discussed ... many times over...<chuckle>... Shows we are light days behind of the other Threads??? 8=}

Do some searches Michael... you would be amazed on the different threads that give tremendous help for all.

Another good thread, was RTC thread and its programming.... Excellent Thread on RTC. Melanie did a superb job with a "timer" too. Just as a fun project... It has much info that everyone can use...


Dwayne

[mytekcontrols]

Do some searches Michael... you would be amazed on the different threads that give tremendous help for all.

I have been, and you are absolutely correct. There is a tremendous amount of support, creativity, and lots of awesome code examples being offered on a daily basis. People like Melanie, Darrel, Bruce, Ingar, Mister_E, and yourself (just to name a few) go out of there way to help out, and do so without making the newbie feel inadaquate.

Thank you all,

[bot402]

The thread link for embedded strings actually shows the lacking within the compiler as most others do this as standard when the PICmicro's architecture allows.

Also, you talk of support. When was the last time any representative from melabs posted on the forum to answer any questions?

You are all being duped into doing everything for youreselves and melabs are simply sitting on the sideline. This is what you expect if you are using a free tool, but not one that is as expensive as the PBP.

[Acetronics2]

Hi, Bot

Just a question ... what are you still doing here losing your precious time ???

don't get a headache for writing us the answer ...

Alain

[mister_e]

Let's go for a second round...

I appreciate every comments on this thread. I wasn't expecting to start a conversation like that. That's funny and make some people thinking about some user attitude.

I mean, if you're on this forum, you should have Melabs compiler right? Thus what is the purpose to complaint about something you use if it's not only to make yourself feel better 'cause you think that other compiler is 'the best one' or 'the one to use'.

Kinda kid conversation : "My father is stronger than yours"

AND MORE, if you use only or mostely other compiler, what the hell are you doing here??? I guess it's only to get better/faster solutions to do some copy/paste/translate operation.

I remind to see, at least, one user that vote "trawling idea" on what compiler do you use poll. Interesting to see that's probably one of those who say, in his word, that we're all stupid/moron to still use PBP and or build our own math routines.

Be honnest!!! Here, you have great support, user knowledge, code example on various see most specific application.

Is my competitors call me to give me bad comment on what i do even if they do more and faster than me?? If so, the original "you must all have more time than money" stuff should be consider by those who complaint for their specific reason.

When was the last time any representative from melabs posted on the forum to answer any questions?

I agree but, many user here contact directly Mr Charles Leo and post results here. Charles is really awesome and answer really quickly if you need something. Even if you find a bug(really not often on PBP) and don't know why, the fix is done the same day... see within the same hour.

Sentence of the day : Where some gives more, other give less.

Think what you want

Yeah i use many compiler PCHW, PBP, Proton and i'd test many other. One is my favorite...PBP. WHY? Because when i write a code, small or big, on a new PIC or old, if i have some compilation error or odd results, i'm sure it's my fault and not because there's something that miss in XYZ file or the update has not been released or will be the the next week/month.

But i agree that some competition offer a really great, attractive package with a really interesting command set and more with a really interesting Price/Package content ratio.

That's a truth. Nothing to complaint about it.

One day, if Melabs do nothing else, don't add some new command to fit to newest PIC, i agree that some 'green' or 'future' user could me more interested about competition one. That's a truth too.

Like many old PBP user had built, or are able to build their own routine(GLCD, KEYPAD....) and place several hours on it, what will be the deal to move to another?

Easier to use? Faster developpement time? Depending who is back to the keyboard it can be true... well i guess.

[Melanie]

bot42:

Whilst string handling is limited within the PICBasic product, a short time searching on this forum will reveal a dozen different ways of manipulating strings. If you pruchased the MeLabs product, you did so in the knowledge of what it was and wasn't capable of doing. If subsequently you now need to manipulate strings, then this forum has shown you how, making you a happy bunny in that you don't have to spend money in buying a competitors product.

This forum is not run or owned by MeLabs. It is a "self-help" forum. That means it is the membership that helps each other. Since practically all of the questions are "How do I do this or that?" (which is a user or applications issue and not something a manufacturer would reply on) rather than "Your product is broke" which is not something that really applies here in the same way as it does with some competitors offerings. MeLabs will always reply to you personally by email if you care to contact them should you have a "broken product" issue. They have mentioned in the past (again if you care to do a search) that it is not their policy to tell people what they might or might-not be developing. The great majority of commercial enterprises follow the same policy.

Nobody is being duped. You KNOW UP-FRONT what you are buying. The specifications and features are CRYSTAL CLEAR, you can even look at the manual on-line, and play with it at compilespot.com. The product works just as advertised. If there is any part of the MeLabs product that does not work as described, then be constructive and let's hear it, because that's something every single user of the MeLabs products (including me) want's to be alterted about. But don't moan that your car hasn't got Air-Con AFTER you've bought it. If they decide to bring out an upgrade kit in the future, then that's a bonus. If they don't, and you really need that Air-Con, then I'm sure you'll chose a diffent manufacturer next time around.

[Demon]

I can't believe it. I never thought I'd ever see a representative of one product come onto a forum dedicated to another product and start bashing.

"I have to say after reading these posts for some time now I can only conclude you all must have more time than money. - OXIMBIT"

"For a company to sell this product for so much that offers so little when there are cheaper products that do more for less I think is ......... - OXIMBIT "

"By "more time than money" means your you prepared to spend all that extra time doing workarounds than spending the money on better product. - OXIMBIT"

"As I know a lot about the way Pbpro works and it's weakness I decided to write a little test code to show the differences between my compiler and Pbpro. - OXIMBIT"

I've worked in businesses for over 20 years now, and I have NEVER seen someone stoop low enough to resort to these most unprofessional tactics.

RULE #1 of business etiquette: NEVER put down the competition, it only makes you appear weaker by resorting to childish behavior.

I have no idea what compiler you have, I don't care if it washes the dishes and serves me beer while it writes my code for me. I will NEVER buy anything from a person like you, EVER. You can also be sure that any business contact that asks for a recommendation in MCUs will be sent your quotes above, as well as what I think of PBP Pro.

"As the last post said if every software company froze there development when it was 100% stable we would not even have got to Ada or one of the really early OS's."

So, where is ADA today?

In business, which you obviously know NOTHING about, stability is the cornerstone to continued business. Banks, credit cards, airline companies, hospitals, the list goes on, CANNOT afford to have a compiler that may or may not work as advertised.

Yes, R&D is important, BUT NEVER AT THE CLIENT'S EXPENSE! Develop your compiler properly, get rid of the tons of bugs and come back once you've done your homework properly. All software has bugs, that is a fact of life. But when someone peddles a compiler by putting down the competition, try approaching any large corporation with this marketting strategy and see how far you'll get. Most likely a swift kick where you need it...

PBP is NOT perfect, but when nearly ALL of the reported bugs are in the user's camp, that is a quality product. Read Mister E's reply, they gurus here have direct access to the power's that be. They get QUICK action on the few bugs they report; it doesn't get much better than that.

As for the lack of appearance from 'official' reps, why should they waste their time here? The gurus filter all the junk requests from those that don't read the darn manual (shut up Mr E. :P I didn't see that spec ok?). They also help out all those that misinterpret the manual, that happens, no big deal. They also go out of their way to help those that want to maximize performance and make PBP do things it was not designed to do. All that triage leaves the power's that be time to address the real issues.

If you are a power that be for another product, what are you doing on this forum? Why are you spending your time improving your product? Why aren't you researching even yet MORE ways to skin a cat? Is your compiler already perfect?

And now the important question: what is your compiler? WAIT! Don'T say it here, that might break a 'anti-bashing' rule against other products, so send it by PM or email.

Robert