God Messages

I am aware of several people that found DC's signature distasteful who were at the time mailing me off-list. Like I said on-list, these folks are the quiet and timid sort to ever mention it themselves. However those adjectives don't apply to me, which prompted me to make a polite comment about it.

DC mentioned the fact that he has "been using this signature for months on another international list and no one had any problems." Perhaps - or are they just too polite to say. Well it DOES offend some people on this list, so let's ALL be respectful to EVERYONE. All communities are different and diverse but should equally be respected.

Again DC mentioned that it did not offend his Jewish boss and co-worker. However I can equally point you to a lovely old Jewish man that I know who has a number tatooed on his arm and directs everyone to visit Aushwitz and then come back and say to his face that they still believe in a God.

A simple "God Bless" or "May your God go with you" would offend no-one. They are non-specific, polite, and equally apply to whatever Deity you happen to believe in. And if you don't believe in any, then remarks such as those are pretty much unoffensive.

It's all down to politeness and behaviour in a wider society. Polite people would moderate their message when it has been pointed out to them. Die-hard religious types I suppose will continue to broadcast their missionary statements to those who would rather not receive them.

Personally I think we should all go to www.ulc.org and get ordained immediately. Can't make our PICBasic coding any worse and there may be tax benefits...

Melanie

Just for the record, I found nothing offensive about the signature.

Steve McLaughlin

Ok, I'm game. I just had to reply to this.

I did not feel offended by the signature in question. However, I could care less what DC feels and how he views the world. My motto 'live and let live', if he is ok with it good for him. But I don't need to know. So when somebody like that does not get the point, it becomes a waste of my time to talk to him.

Short answer, I ignore him. Gee, I guess that makes me insensitive.

languer.

HI
I don't usually read the signatures at the bottom of e-mails so I missed the one in point. However having read it a small legal matter came to mind. As an atheist I am not permitted to air my views or promote them legally in the UK or the USA as I could be prosecuted under the archaic Heresy laws which exist in both countries (I have been threatened with this by the authorities). So as an oppressed minority yes I am offended until i am allowed the same rights as everyone else!

Hi,

I think you've got it more or less covered Mel.

Personally i think Religion and Politics should be kept out of ANY forum(unless ofcourse if it's a forum covering those topics). Theese subjects have started too many wars,flame and the real killing kind.

I don't like it when Jehovas wittnesses come knocking on my door and i don't like when people chant religious hymns over my head. I'm open to the fact that God exists, all he has to do is appear in front of me and say "Hi Ingvar, i'm God, would you please be so kind and believe in me". Need i say that he hasn't appeared yet.

Ingvar

Its interesting, in this electronic age, on a mailing list, how does one "get their personality across".

Polite informative posting is one way, but we are all individuals and we need to be a little different whilst all being the same.

So a footer could be concidered as a way of doing this.

After all, if we were all to meet up in a hotel for a PIC BASIC Conference, would we turn our backs on a religious person because they attended in their normal working attire?

I'm playing devils advocate here, but on the mailing list, how do you show who you are......does it matter? I'm not sure.

On the foum, you CAN show who you are, or your personality, you have the use of avatars, no need for signatures.

No-Sig, Lester

Dear Folks,

No one has explained what is offensive about my signature.

I like my signature. It took several months of thinking before I was able to commit those carefully worded phrases to written form. They indicate that serving God is my first priority. It is to be expected that the words will offend someone. These days, you can always find someone who will be offended by what you say, no matter what you say.

My sig is a blessing and a prayer. It is my constant longing to see people come to a knowledge of the truth and turn their lives around. The power of the gospel is in the way it causes people to change their lives. They lay down their bad habits and begin serving God by doing good works.

Anyone who would claim that religion only causes war has not seen an alcoholic give up his liquor, or an angry man find peace, or a thief make restitution to his victims, or a rich man give money to the poor, or a busy man take time out to help an orphan, or a group of people pool their money to help a widow.

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.' (James 1:27)

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23)

If this is offensive, then by all means, be offended.

David

I think, to be fair, it is not so much the god message that is offensive, rather, it is the notion that people of faith are just sooo arrogant and self indulgent in their knowledge of the 'truth'.

As an athiest (read Humanist) I get really wild when I am told that 'God loves Athiests too'

Why not just tell me that I'm stupid and incapable of rational thought?

Along the lines of what Melanie said about Aushwitz - My main line of employment is in Psychiatry. I see everyday the product of delusional and distorted thinking. In 22 years as a specialist I have never really been able to define the difference between believing in aliens and believing in god! - There simply is no evidence for either!

Just because 90% of the people of the world beleive that god exists doesn't make it so - lets face it, 500 years ago 100% of Chrisondom beleived the world was flat, and every one of them was wrong!

Be good to each other
Peter

David
I have seen the alchoholic give up liquor, the thief repent etc. all without the crutch that is religion. Your quotes from James and Galatians are all very well however the majority of Born again Christians I have had the misfortune to know are the most selfish, dishonest, arrogant narrow minded bigots I have to deal with.
They continually proclaim their faith to be the only true faith, other like minded sects are labelled misguided or even heretics like myself. As to those of other faiths they are condemned to eternal damnation without a second thought.
As I say if I were to proclaim my beliefs or disbeliefs aloud and try to persuade others to my way of thinking I would be breaking ancient laws which have never, and never will be repealed.
How do you deal with the the reformed alchoholic when he is asked to remember Christ by drinking wine, and in Paul's epistle to Timothy he urges the younger man and I quote "Drink not the water but take a little wine".
I know these things as I was brought up by "god fearing parents" and my body still bears the scars of the beatings which I recieved on a regular basis to "keep me from the devil's work"
So I think you may now understand why myself and others are offended by your unwanted preaching.

AS i say, i accept the need to express one's personality or "self" and the SIG is a way of doing this.

The problem arises when the sig is rather long and not approprate for the topic of discussion. Coupled with the fact that the meduim is multinational.

If any of us are to be accepted by our peers, we need to ensure that we both express our individuality (for sanitys sake) and also not offend our make ourselves appear too different.

To follow a religion or belief surely must be acceptable, its a personal thing and pretty much the norm. To promote that following very overtly is probably asking for some adverse comment and will probably been seen as unacceptable by some.

If someone follows a religion or belief and abides by it, surely this will affect that way that their persona is percieved by others. Is it necessary to overtly pronounce what the folowing is. If you are liked and respected, people will warm to you and follow in your footsteps. Regardless of the religion or belifs involved.

Hi David,

The reason for me not to like you footer is not something i wish to discuss in a public forum.

You're missing the point, you have been asked politley(by some - not so by others) to remove your footer by people that have been offended by it. Why they were offended is not important, the fact that they were - is. So, if you keep using this footer, even though you know you'll hurt people, you're beeing very rude and disrespectful.

I respect that you're a believer and don't tell you to stop, would you please show me(and others) the same respect and stop telling me to begin.

Ingvar

I'm not christian, but still wish you all the best.

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Originally posted by Melanie

A simple "God Bless" or "May your God go with you" would offend no-one. They are non-specific, polite, and equally apply to whatever Deity you happen to believe in. And if you don't believe in any, then remarks such as those are pretty much unoffensive.

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Not to let semantics get in the way, but your less "offensive" sig should be "May god bless" or "May your god go with you" (The lower case g is the change). As a believer in God, I don't personally find DC's sig offensive except for the length. It's a little chatty.
But would I fing a sig about Allah or Buddah offensive? Not really (Christians know how to deal with these topics), but do feel that "Contagious Christians" (read the book, it's is awesome) know where and when these things are appropriate.

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Personally I think we should all go to www.ulc.org and get ordained immediately. Can't make our PICBasic coding any worse and there may be tax benefits...

Melanie [/B]

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I already am ;) Been ordained for about two years. Do I preach? No, but I used to be called a "Mobile Data Evangelist" at my last job due to my extensive knowledge of mobile data systems. I got ordained so I could be called "Minister of Mobile Data".


Nik

Dear Folks,

I completely agree that people should have the right to be offended by my signature. I completely disagree that I should have to change or remove my signature just because someone is offended.

I probably have this point of view because I live in the United States and we have something called the bill of rights. One of these rights is freedom of speech. In our country people say things that offend others all day long, every day. And there are people who are offended by these sayings but fight wars to defend the the right to say these things.

There are people in this country that believe that it should be illegal to express certain ideas. Fortunately, they currently have only a small impact on the right to free speech.

Remember that George Orwell wrote 1984 because he was afraid that one day a time would come when it would be illegal in Europe to even think certain thoughts, much less express them in verbal or written form. Be aware that your attitudes are helping to usher in such an age.

Some people have written that they were offended by my signature because someone else claiming to be a Christian did something to harm them. I was once sexually harassed by a 60-year-old Californian Christian who was a manager at a company where I worked. However, I am not offended when a 60-year-old, or a Californian, or a manager, or a Christian says something to me. Guilt by association is bad logic.

I thank God that I live in a country where freedom of speech is vigorously defended. I pray that one day the citizens of your country will shrug off the shackles of oppression and obtain the freedom that I prize so highly.

May the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob bless you all,
David Cullen

Where does it end Dave?

Appended messages next from the Democrats, Republicans, or perhaps from the Communist Party? Talking of which, (just taking one example from many, many fine examples) from supposedly the land of free speech came Senator McCarthy who demanded that anyone who so much had a Socialist leaning was thrown out of office, lost their job, was hounded into committing suicide or imprisoned… and 99.9% of the American public followed the mass hysteria. I think that (very recent) period in US history was a damn sight more Orwellian than most countries in Europe EVER have been.

Like I said in my original thread starter and I’ll quote it again in case it was missed first time around… “It's all down to politeness and behaviour in a wider society. Polite people would moderate their message when it has been pointed out to them. Die-hard religious types I suppose will continue to broadcast their missionary statements to those who would rather not receive them.”

Kinda like smoking… what you do in your home is your business, but don’t blow it in my face without soliciting a reaction.

Melanie

Dear David,

I'm a strong believer in the "freedom of speech", in Sweden(where i live) and most civilized countries this is quite normal.

However, this does NOT give me the right to repeatedly offend (verbally or in any form) other people. Then it becomes harassement and as far as i know, that's not accepted in your country either.

Maybe the murder rate in the US would drop a little if it's citizens could learn to behave a little more civilized....... Ohhh i forgot, it's "a God given right" to own a gun in your country......

Ingvar

PS.
Where's this "shackle of oppression" attached, i can't seem to find it?
DS.

Dear Melanie and Invgar,

Melanie wrote:

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Like I said in my original thread starter and I’ll quote it again in case it was missed first time around… “It's all down to politeness and behaviour in a wider society. Polite people would moderate their message when it has been pointed out to them. Die-hard religious types I suppose will continue to broadcast their missionary statements to those who would rather not receive them.”

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Your definition of politeness is de facto censorship of ideas you do not like.

Melanie wrote:

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Kinda like smoking… what you do in your home is your business, but don’t blow it in my face without soliciting a reaction.

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Second hand reading of blessings is not known to cause cancer or any other disease. And, although your reaction offends _me_, I have not asked you to keep it off this mailing list.

Ingvar wrote:

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However, this does NOT give me the right to repeatedly offend (verbally or in any form) other people. Then it becomes harassement and as far as i know, that's not accepted in your country either.

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In my country, we _do_ have the right to say things that offend others. Anything less is not really free speech. Forcing people to stop saying things because they offend someone is censorship.

Ingvar wrote:

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Maybe the murder rate in the US would drop a little if it's citizens could learn to behave a little more civilized.......

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Apparently, your definition of behaving in a civilized manner means not mentioning any ideas that are controversial. Welcome to 1984. Please relax while your brain is washed clean of any offensive ideas.

Ingvar wrote:

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Ohhh i forgot, it's "a God given right" to own a gun in your country......

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It's not a God given right, its a constitutional right.

Now, it's my turn:
What if I said that Melanie is a sarcastic bully and she should stop her rude behavior because it offends me (which it does)?

What if I said that Invgar uses flawed rhetoric and inflammatory comments and that he should stop immediately because he offends me (which he does)?

Should my opinion rule you?

You two need to seriously think about your stand on this issue. And when you respond, please try to be less emotional and more logical.

For example, you might want to cite case law on this issue, or high court rulings in your respective countries.

Your sarcastic tones and flawed rhetoric do not advance your arguments. In fact, the only argument you really have is that you are offended.

The truth is that I didn't offend you, you chose to be offended. I can't make you think or feel something. Your thoughts and feelings are chosen by you. Should I be held hostage to your narrow definitions of politeness and civilized behavior? That is _exactly_ why we have such a broad definition of freedom of speech in my country. We do not want the collective dialog to be limited by the opinions of a select few who install themselves as the arbiters of acceptable speech.

So go forth, be offended, and may God bless you.

I don’t think I actually stated in any message, or at any time, that I was 'personally' offended by your messages David or indeed whether I like or dislike them, I did however say that I do know people who are. It is on behalf of those people that I first mentioned it. Your choice of ignoring a 'polite' request to moderate your particular brand of religious messages in what has hiterto been a neutral non-religious and non-sectarian forum is really a slap in the face to all the other people who don’t abuse communications mediums and know how to 'behave' when addressing multi-ethnic, multi-denominational audiences. There is a huge difference between 'behaviour' and 'censorship' even if you chose not to recognise it or were absent when it was taught in school.

With my analogy to smoking, one can chose to dislike something on grounds other than just health. I and others may well hold certain views on various topics (including religion), but we don’t FORCE you to read our views or beliefs every time we post a message. You on the other hand do.

I am done on this thread even though I’d love to propagate this further and wider as ‘promotor fidei’ (look it up - it comes from your religion) but I’ve stated my case adequately and succinctly even if you chose to ignore it. Somebody has to fly the flag for 'the dark side' just to ensure this is a balanced list.

Melanie

PS. If you dislike my style of writing, please start a new thread about it, detail what you don’t like, provide some examples to give credence to your grievance, even put it to a vote, and I’ll take everyone’s views on-board AND ACT ON THEM where appropriate. Now that's not censorship, that's being just being polite to the wider audience of readers.

Dear David,

First i feel the need to point out that i'm trying to keep this discussion in a language diffrent from my native tounge. My grammar and spelling will for this reason be less than perfect, please excuse my errors. When trying to communicate in a second language one often make mistakes in the details, the messages often sound harsher than intended. The language barrier might also explain why you keep spelling my name wrong. Perhaps it's also the explanation for my "flawed rhetoric"(not sure what that means), if it's about my spelling i think you now know why. If it's about me using arguments that is out of place i'll admit i got a little carried away when i mentioned guns and murder, sorry about that.

About the "relax while your brain is washed clean" remark i hope this is irony/sarkasm, if it's a comment about my intelligence i would be deeply hurt. I'll write it off as sarkasm as i think that is what you intended.


Since you seemed to miss it in my last post, i do believe strongly in "freedom of speech", democracy depends on it. I agree that you have the right to think diffrently, i actually think this is what makes the world move forward, keep it up. I also agree that you have the right to say it out loud without beeing punished.

What i've been trying to say all along is that.......

Even though you may have the right to say something, it's not always the wisest thing to do.

Silence by choise isn't the same as enforced silence.

A full frontal attack isn't always the best strategy, sometimes a sneaky sideattack is far better. Applying this to your SIG would mean that you first make it short and generic. A "God bless you" would tell me that you're a believer and that you wish me well. After a while when all are used to this, you expand it a little. Before you know it you could use your entire prayer without anyone(except the odd one) beeing offended.

I'm sorry that my "flawed rhetoric and inflammatory comments" offended you, i'll try to be more correct in my analogy further on.

However i can't let "The truth is that I didn't offend you, you chose to be offended." pass without a comment. The first thing that came to mind, was the childs defence when her mother heard the cat scream.
-"No mom, i didn't pull the cat by the tail. I just held the tail, it was the cat that did the pulling."

or.....

-"No officer, i didn't punch him on the nose. He chose not to move when i took a swing at his face."

Poor analogies i know, but a little funny, atleast i think so :-)

The truth is that i only reacted to something you said(wrote). This reaction was based on feelings, reactions often is. How could i choose not to be offended when it already had offended me? It would have blown over in a second if it wasn't for the fact that you later stated that you wouldn't even consider changing a thing, just because you had the right to say whatever you like. Your SIG changed in that instance from a "prayer-blessing"(which i found inappropriate/out of place but not very harmful) to "preaching"(unwanted bossing). When i want to hear preaching i go to church, i do not subscribe to a PicBasic mailing list with rules about what should and shouldn't be posted. You might think the rules are censorship, i think they're guidelines to help people with different backgrounds get along and keep flaming to a minimum. If it really was censorship your message wouldn't have passed and i couldn't have reacted. Now it did and we see democracy in work, we are having a debate.

With this off my chest i'll now take my own advice and keep quiet so i won't offend anyone more, and besides, both my fingers and my brain need to relax. Coffe anyone

/Ingvar

Perhaps we could bring this into focus by asking if the following might offend.

"May the prophet of satan and bielzibub focus his attention on you and your family. May his little elves keep watch over your actions and guide you in your work. His blessing be upon you."

While clearly I don't mean you (or anyone else) any harm, my "blessing" being nothing but inoccuous words with no malice intended, those of you with a religious bent will find them un- nerving and, at least faintly, upsetting.

In Australia, where I live, we are being confronted by a Catholic Church that is currently "instructing" our catholic parlimentarians to reject any move towards accepting 'gay' marriages as a legitimate family structure. Yhis move is clearly mandated by public opinion and is otherwise sure to get up. Not good enough for the church - they know better!

While I don't want to get into a debate about the gay thing I am horrified by the insidious move away from secular democracy towards a theocratic system in which social policy is set by a select few rather than by the wishes of the majority.

The reason these sort of blessings are offensive is not the blessing itself but more that they are just another method for 'normalising' irrational thocratic thinking that helps control free thought.

Saying 'There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet' over and over again is a good way to brainwash people into believing there is no god but allah and mohamed is his prophet!

Regards
Peter