PICs - Playground or 'serious' microcontroller

[selbstdual]

Dear reader,

to me, starting with microcontrollers meant starting with pics.

When I hear 'PIC' I immediately associate it with hobbiist projects,
creative setups made of wood or being connected to standard
boxes and producing only prototypes. Nothing that ever reaches
the style(and size per functions) of an ipod or a palm(In which there
are no pics as I guess).

To be able to rewrite the microcontroller is necessary in developing
something but what about the final product that is to be sold ?

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?

As I said not to talk about the missing design aspect of most setups -
Functionality is above Beauty is an unwritten law in my experience.

[Melanie]

When you buy a new Microwave Oven, do you check what microprocessor is inside? No.

When you buy a new flatscreen TV, do you check what microprocessor is inside? No.

When you buy a new car, do you check what microprocessor controls the engine management system? No.

When you go into hospital, do you check what microprocessor is checking your Blood Pressure and Heart Rate? No.

Next time you drive down the road, did you ever think as to what microprocessor is controlling the city junction traffic lights? No.

Ever think about what microprocessor dispenses the fuel into your car? No.

Ever thought about the microprocessor that keeps your house Heated or Air Conditioned or the water in your shower at optimum temperature? No.

When you drop money into a vending machine for your next can of cold Coke or Coffee or Chocolate Bar, will you first consider what microprocessor is dispensing your chosen vend? No.

People don't care about microprocessors - they care about Cars, Hot Food and getting home on time to a comfortable house, what's on TV tonight, Fuel and Coke and Coffee and Chocolate Bars and Sex! Yup, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of...

So who cares what's inside the box!

[selbstdual]

Who cares what's inside. Everyone who is using circuits to create a new one based on it.

Take motor driving circuits - or LCDs. If I saw a PIC on the back of a LCD, I would smile. But this is me.

Finally all people who do not like proprietary software care what's inside of a technical device aswell.

[Melanie]

Who cares what's inside. Everyone who is using circuits to create a new one based on it.

That's the problem with this world... everyone is imitating instead of innovating...


If I saw a PIC on the back of a LCD, I would smile.

I personally know at least THREE millionaires... each of them became that way because of PICs and MeLabs's PICBasic... and when they see a PIC, they smile too...

[selbstdual]

There is a misunderstanding. It is about innovating - not reinventing.

A software engineer does not need to solder his mainboard.

You are using given components to develop on a higher level -
as it is with PBP compared to ASM.

If you produce for business partners it matters. If you produce for the end
user who wants to use it only - then there's no need to replace the pic.

One question is still there, though:

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?

[Melanie]

One question is still there, though:

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?

Neither. It is just another component on the board.

It's the finished product that counts.

I have seen some very poor professional products where I wonder why the engineers are not in jail, and I have seen amateur products built as a hobby that are 'par excellance' that would put many professional engineers to shame.

[Acetronics2]

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?



May be the answer is not so simple ...

Why ask for a Cray computer to count 2+2 ???
Why ask for .0001% calc. precision when your sensors give at best 1 or 2 %

It's not a question of amateur or professionnal ... only a question of more or less known brands ...

The less known, the more professionnal ... of course !!! Only professionnals could know that brand !!!

µChip has been one of the first brands to understand a "cheap" IDE and huge litterature and tools associated with would seriously boost their products selling.

Others only follow ... slowly.

Heard of Cypress ??? what do you think of their PSoC Express ???
Heard of Freescale ??? What do you think of their Processor Expert ???
...

Professionnal tools or amateur tools ???
Professionnal Brands or amateur Brands ???

Alain

[Luciano]

Hi,

The ability to match processing power to the application is an
important consideration when designers select a microcontroller.

For a mass production, the goal is to have adequate processing
power at the lowest possible price.

What kind of applications do you have in mind?


Best regards,

Luciano

[skimask]

Not that it makes a difference in the whole amateur vs. professional arena...but...

I work in a shop where we fix 'obsolete', no longer procurable items.
I'll pull apart a lot of items on a daily basis to see what's what...and if it's fixable or not...
There are a lot of PIC's out there. A lot of the PIC16Cxx types are in quite a few household appliances, washers, dryers, microwaves, etc. (generally these items are too old to have flash PICs in them). I taken a number of the PICs to my house to check them out. Read out the old code (you'd be surprised how many of the older PICs are code protected!!!), burn some new code to try out the pin drivers, reburn the old code). I haven't found one yet that had failed, 99.9% of the time, it's something else (i.e. motor, gear train, valve, etc).
Of course this is just off the top of my head. I've seen PICs in numerous other places. And I will say that it appears that the PICs major role in these items is as reprogrammable glue logic, which is exactly what PICs 'back in the day' were made for, take up a load of discrete logic chips, pack them into one chip.
And again, all name brand stuff.
And that's the beauty of a PIC......good enough for the pro's, simple enough for the schmo's....
(and I keep going back to post #2, something about a pic in the box in the box...)

[Melanie]

The perception of something amateurish or professional is in the eye of the beholder.

So, professional or amateur?

The definition is one who gets paid for doing something, or one who does it without recompense, for a hobby or for the love of it. Just because you get paid for doing something doesn't mean you're any better than someone who doesn't.

Professionnal Brands or amateur Brands ???

Let's put forward an example. Fit SIEMENS (premium European brand) Relay at about $1 or HONGFA (Chinese budget brand) at 21 cents? Which is the professional? What about Contactors? Fit SIEMENS brand at SIX times the price of Chinese TEKO brand? It may surprise you to learn that SIEMENS consistantly fails in the field, yet their market dominance and perception of a premium professional brand means they'll continue to peddle their overpriced products, and those who know no better will continue to buy their offerings.

Definition of a professional company? One who has better PR and a stronger salesforce.

[selbstdual]

It's the finished product that counts.
Not in security relevant areas.


I have seen some very poor professional products where I wonder why the engineers are not in jail, and I have seen amateur products built as a hobby that are 'par excellance' that would put many professional engineers to shame.
Examples ? I have never seen an amateur designing an ipod like device. Especially concerning the thickness.


The less known, the more professionnal.
The less known, the less trustworthy.


Heard of Cypress ??? what do you think of their PSoC Express ???
Heard of Freescale ??? What do you think of their Processor Expert ???.
I can't see a connection to the topic.


The ability to match processing power to the application is an
important consideration when designers select a microcontroller.
Yes. There are compareable products, which have the same processing power but are not used by hobbyists. I think it is a curse for b2b if your products are mainly used by hobbyists. Well, hobbyist does not need to be equal to producing amateurish products, but this is how it is perceived often.


For a mass production, the goal is to have adequate processing
power at the lowest possible price.
Yes.


What kind of applications do you have in mind?
What do you mean ?



The perception of something amateurish or professional is in the eye of the beholder.
I am talking about professional people in the working areas being mentioned (mainly security). Imagine a power plant where the brown out bit is set in a pic and the pic suddenly stops working.


Just because you get paid for doing something doesn't mean you're any better than someone who doesn't.
You invest more time in the same thing. The same as in university: You know a lot more than someone who has not studied a subject yet. There is a higher probability that your circuits are better because you know more approaches to a solution.


Definition of a professional company? One who has better PR and a stronger salesforce.
Yes.

[keithdoxey]

Yes. There are compareable products, which have the same processing power but are not used by hobbyists. I think it is a curse for b2b if your products are mainly used by hobbyists. Well, hobbyist does not need to be equal to producing amateurish products, but this is how it is perceived often.

PICs are used by hobbyists because they are easy to use and the development tools are cheap. That doesnt mean that PICs arent used in commercial products. I have a couple of Kenwood 5" TFT Monitors and the controlling chip is a PIC.

Yes a lot of hobbyists use PICs and between them probably buy thousands of devices per year but someone like Melanie buys thousands of devices for a single product their company produces.

I have over a thousand items out there containing PICs and in over 5 years there hasnt beeen a single failure caused by a PIC or the software.



I am talking about professional people in the working areas being mentioned (mainly security). Imagine a power plant where the brown out bit is set in a pic and the pic suddenly stops working.


That comment is fatally flawed. Many microcontrollers have brownout detection etc. How the microcontroller is programmed and how the hardware/software responds to brownouts etc is down to the skills of the designer.



I have never seen an amateur designing an ipod like device. Especially concerning the thickness.

Hmmmm.... at least one member of this list has designed an MP3 player using a PIC. True, it is probably larger than an iPod but then the first generation iPods were considerably larger than current models. Its also a fair bet that the proof of concept design wasnt all that small. Given the facilities to produce the required hardware there is no reason why an "amateur" couldnt create such a design but the tools, facilities and finance required are beyond their means.

The whole Amateur/Professional division is a difficult line to draw.

The word professional can be used to indicate someone with formal qualifications, someone who is paid for doing a particular task, or can be used to indicate the finished look of a product.

An amateur may earn a few beer tokens for their hobby in which case they could be classed as semi-professional, they could have far greater knowledge than someone with formal qualifications but just dont have that "bit of paper" and they can (and often do) produce work to a very high standard.

Getting back the the thread title, my opinion is that the PIC is both Playground AND Serious Microcontroller.

Serious Microcontroller because millions of electronic items contain PICs and Playground because it is an affordable way for hobbyists to get into Microcontrollers.

[Darrel Taylor]

This probably doesn't help, but....

There are PIC's flying on the International Space Station.

The reason it won't help, is because the only one's I know about are on "amateur" science projects.

And to top it off ... I heard some Basic Stamps made it up there too.
What's the world coming to. :eek:

.

[keithdoxey]

This probably doesn't help, but....

There are PIC's flying on the International Space Station.

The reason it won't help, is because the only one's I know about are on "amateur" science projects.

And to top it off ... I heard some Basic Stamps made it up there too.
What's the world coming to. :eek:

.

Like I said..... its difficult to draw the line :)

[Ron Marcus]

I consider myself a hobbyist. I love playing with PICs and "that new component" in the Digikey catalog that I have to order overnight so I can look at it tomorrow, revel in it's new component smell(?) and dream of it's potential....Even though I may not build it into a project for six months!
On the other hand, I have designed and built devices using PICs that are used by goverment, military, and commercial entities that I have been paid for and complimented on for their performance. They run a mix of PBP and assembly language as the timing dictated. If PICs are a playground, I have dug up a lot of cash in the sandbox! Now, I would like to get into 16 and 32 bit power for some upcoming video projects, but that would mean jumping into the "C"! So it's time to get the toes wet with the 24F series. C'mon Melabs, we need a second sandbox!

Ron
(Perfessional Hobbyist...and loving it!)

[skimask]

Examples ? I have never seen an amateur designing an ipod like device. Especially concerning the thickness.
http://web.ndak.net/jdgrotte/mp3player/mp3_player.html
Version 5 of that 'hobbyist project' was going to be 1 1/2" thick, 80GB drive, lithium-ion pack, color GLCD, RF remote, IR remote, RF FM Xmtr, OBD2 interface, USB 2 support...
Then I gave up because the market got saturated a few years ago...


The less known, the less trustworthy.
And 'Sodamm Insane' was a saint?

[mister_e]

it's somehow insane. What's a microcontroller anyway?

Black pinned box with memory code and I/O. Write whatever you want on, they will do the job.

Cypress, Freescale, Ti, Zilog, StMicroelectronics and ALL new monthly brands you could see in EP&T and Electronic Design magazine... who will care as they do their job?

Yes some are more powerful, some less. Microchip ofer many different range of microcontroller, from the most stupid 10F to DsPIC. I use them all, i love 'em all. But yes, in some case i may need to use another brand for more powerful application. It's called, BlackFin.

Get the job done and that's it.

The software developer have something to do with it.

[selbstdual]

There are PIC's flying on the International Space Station.
Yes, I see ;)

[paul borgmeier]

Hey, did you see that Microchip shipped its five-billionth microcontroller late last year (thats 5000000000 microcontrollers)? They also sold a billion of them during the year leading up to this total.
I had no idea there were that many amateurs out there.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/Market_Communication/DEC%2006%20microSOLUTIONS.pdf (see page 9 for details)

[Normnet]

But yes, in some case i may need to use another brand for more powerful application. It's called, BlackFin.

Is BlackFin code in C?
What applications in Blackfin?

Norm

[selbstdual]

So the fact that microchip has a lot of b2b customers is being proven by the amount of sold out pics.

The following questions apply to all participants in this thread(and those deciding to join):

First: Where is proof that these pics went into security relevant areas ?
Second: How many are using pic circuits to create a new one based on it ?
Third: On which LCD is a pic ?
Fourth: Who is using a given pic circuitry, whose interest is in non proprietary software aswell ?

PS: I don't trust these statistics.

Hey, did you see that Microchip shipped its five-billionth microcontroller late last year (thats 5000000000 microcontrollers)? They also sold a billion of them during the year leading up to this total.
I had no idea there were that many amateurs out there.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/Market_Communication/DEC%2006%20microSOLUTIONS.pdf (see page 9 for details)

[keithdoxey]

So the fact that microchip has a lot of b2b customers is being proven by the amount of sold out pics.


First: Where is proof that these pics went into security relevant areas ?.

That wasnt part of your original post but I am sure there are quite a few security prodcts that contain PICs


Second: How many are using pic circuits to create a new one based on it ?.

What do you mean by that ???


Third: On which LCD is a pic ?.

If you mean as the acutal display driver, probably none as a dedicated chip will be the best means of driving the actual display but there are many LCD displays fitted wth "Serail Backpacks" that are PIC based and an LCD monitor that I have by Kenwood uses a 16 series PIC as its control MPU.


Fourth: Who is using a given pic circuitry, whose interest is in non proprietary software aswell ?


What do you mean by that ???

[selbstdual]

That wasnt part of your original post but I am sure there are quite a few security prodcts that contain PICs

..

If you mean as the acutal display driver, probably none as a dedicated chip will be the best means of driving the actual display but there are many LCD displays fitted wth "Serail Backpacks" that are PIC based and an LCD monitor that I have by Kenwood uses a 16 series PIC as its control MPU.
keithdoxey, you are trying too hard to be against my arguments. Agreeing with what I wrote is no big deal :)



How many are using pic circuits to create a new one based on it ?.

What do you mean by that ??
Person A creates a circuitry based on a pic. Person B creates a circuitry based on A's circuitry.


Fourth: Who is using a given pic circuitry, whose interest is in non proprietary software aswell ?

What do you mean by that ???
Someone who is interested in knowing what happens. Refer to above.

[T.Jackson]

To say that PIC micros are bound entirely within the scope of (hobbyist / amateur) market only is near border line ridiculous. The last thing on Microchip's mind is a $5 sale from a few hobbyists here and there. I'd hate to think of the cost involved to design these devices. Anyones guess is as good as mine, upwards of a few million?. C'mon, get real - there's simply just not enough amateurs around to be able to justify it. My guess is that only a few percent of sales are generated from the hobbyist. Microchip's intentions are obvious to me, give them half the chance and they'll probably give Intel a run for their money next.

[mister_e]

Is BlackFin code in C?
What applications in Blackfin?

Norm
Variant of C/C++ and / Or assembler.

Mainly for multiformat audio, image processing, video. Pretty sure it's fast enough to generate color video without too much effort.

Since now i just updated some customer firmware and did some test. REALLY impressive, but... not something i would use daily.

[Jerson]

The following questions apply to all participants in this thread(and those deciding to join):

First: Where is proof that these pics went into security relevant areas ?


I designed my electronic coffers and doorlocks around the PIC. Do these qualify as security products?

Jerson

[Melanie]

Do you have PICs in Security Camera's? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Remote Camera Platforms? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Camera Quads? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Security Recording Devices? Yes.
Do you have PICs in PIR Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Break-Glass Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Vibration Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Microwave Doppler Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Burglar Alarm Controllers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in High Security Line Drivers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Alarm Autodiallers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Door Access Controls? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Credit Card Readers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Bank Front-Office Transaction Terminals? Yes.
Do you have PICs in ATM's? (Cash Machines for those who don't know what an ATM is) Yes.

umm... how big a security list do you want?

[sinoteq]

If the brand decides if a thing is Amateurish or Professional then beeing a Professional golfplayer must be really hard. As soon as you find a brand with the professional feeling to it, any amateur wants to buy it. Then you think, I'll go for the most expensive brand that most amateurs can't affort. Doing that will only make sure you end up among the worst kind of amateurs, the ones with too much money and usually no talents at all in the specific field.

Of course there is a difference between these two groups, in a similar way there are amateur and professional people cooking. Sure once in a while even an amateur can make a great dish, but the professional can make it everytime. It is not what you mix together. It is how you mix them! or even more so, how not to mix.

/me

[RussMartin]

Keith makes a good point on the distinction between "amateur" and "professional". "Amateur" in its strict sense means one who loves a pursuit; the word is not automatically synonymous with "novice" or "shoddy".

When I was starting out with microcontrollers and microprocessors, it meant devices like the 8008 (and the 4004), 8080, and 8085. (That was a really long time ago!)

In the early and middle 1980s, I remember hearing some "professionals" (other engineers) sneer at the Z-80 as a "toy". ("Amateurs" had started using them.)

I had the opportunity, earlier this month, to spend 5-1/2 days at MicroChip's 11th annual Masters Conference and PreConference in Phoenix--about 44 in-class hours, most with labs. And I got to mingle with 800 other engineers, many from other countries, who are using PICs daily in every imaginable application design.

[Christopher4187]

I just enjoyed when Melanie said, "Yup, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of..."

[mackrackit]

I just enjoyed when Melanie said, "Yup, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of..."

Is that an amateur or professional vibrator. :D

[pmcleod]

, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of...

So who cares what's inside the box!

Sorry to come into this late, but an engineer I know hates PICs so much, when asked by "A friend" to repair one of these he replaced the PIC with an AVR, the heathen;-) but apparently he tripled the number of operating modes.

I'm with you though, it matters what the product does, not what's inside to make it happen. My next project will be based around a smallish PIC but will sell, for circa £1000 (I hope)

[selbstdual]

Do you have PICs in Security Camera's? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Remote Camera Platforms? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Camera Quads? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Security Recording Devices? Yes.
Do you have PICs in PIR Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Break-Glass Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Vibration Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Microwave Doppler Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Burglar Alarm Controllers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in High Security Line Drivers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Alarm Autodiallers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Door Access Controls? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Credit Card Readers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Bank Front-Office Transaction Terminals? Yes.
Do you have PICs in ATM's? (Cash Machines for those who don't know what an ATM is) Yes.

umm... how big a security list do you want?
I see no proof for any item. Do you have any ? ;)

[mackrackit]

selbstdual,

Are you a professional? Your bio says you are a tax inspector, so you must be an armature in electronics.

Many of the people on this forum (myself included) make their living one way or another with electronics. Also, I would guess that many of these people (myself included again) are doing custom jobs (less than 1000 units) or proto-typing for a larger firm, working under a given set of specifications. I know of some that are doing R+D for projects with military specifications.

Why should someone here provide proof to you that the parts we use are used in other products.
Many have posted on this thread telling you that they use PICs in their security devices or that they know PICs are used in security devices. Yet you ask for proof. You even denied the sales statistics given for PICs. I see that as you calling the people on this forum liars.

You sir owe many an apology.

[Melanie]

I wasn't aware that I had to provide proof of every statement I make.

Here is Microchips annual report...

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/Finance/FY07_Annual.pdf

Perhaps selbstdual can tell us where $1billion worth of sales went...

Actually if I was the President of Microchip, I wouldn't give a sh*t if every one of my chips went into a toy as long as the money keeps rolling into the Bank!

Good luck to them and to the rest of us that earn a damn-good living from this business.

[keithdoxey]

I see no proof for any item. Do you have any ? ;)

No... but I trust what Melanie says. I have seen PICs in many products including some that have the numbers erased from chips.

Your responses to well thought out replies within this thread indicate that no matter what we say you will still argue the point so therefore this thread is nothing more than a troll and I will not contribute to it nor any other of your posts any more.

[Luciano]

Hi,

The brain is an organ like all of the other organs in the body.
The brain is vulnerable to a great many disorders, many of them chronic.
DysPICxia is a very rare disorder with a worldwide incidence of 0.5
to 1.0 cases per million per year.

Be tolerant!

Best regards,

Luciano

[RussMartin]

Perhaps selbstdual would be happier using something from the 8051 family of devices, and BASIC for it (maybe BASCOM-51). There are plenty of forums and support! :)

(Oops--I forgot; there are a lot of "amateurs" using 8051s! Darn! :( )

[NF9Ω]

Perhaps selbstdual would be happier using something from the 8051 family of devices, and BASIC for it (maybe BASCOM-51). There are plenty of forums and support! :)

(Oops--I forgot; there are a lot of "amateurs" using 8051s! Darn! :( )

8051 (AT) series have no security. One can Extract code easily with some tricks.
Microchip have great security except F84, So my point of view, PIC is 'serious' micro.

[T.Jackson]

Hi,

The brain is an organ like all of the other organs in the body.
The brain is vulnerable to a great many disorders, many of them chronic.
DysPICxia is a very rare disorder with a worldwide incidence of 0.5
to 1.0 cases per million per year.


You'll probably find that some of the cat scan systems have a PIC buried somewhere in them.

[selbstdual]

If it was so easy to earn money with chips why isn't everyone doing it ?

Go into detail how one could make much money with microchips. And by detail I am talking about "including proof".

[T.Jackson]

If it was so easy to earn money with chips why isn't everyone doing it ?

Go into detail how one could make much money with microchips. And by detail I am talking about "including proof".

You're completely missing the plot (or perhaps in the process of losing it) - It's the end result / product that counts, not what's inside. BTW: Good luck in getting people to give away their trade secrets on how to make it rich. LMFAO

[RussMartin]

If it was so easy to earn money with chips why isn't everyone doing it ?

It isn't clear to me whether you mean by manufacturing them or by designing with them. Also: Not everyone is doing digital or digital/analog designs. (There are still plenty of analog-only applications out there!) Further, there are a lot of people with ideas but without sufficient knowledge--especially in some fundamental aspects of electronics--to execute them.

It's my job to take another person's idea and make it a reality. I don't invent products, I design them for other people. I'm a superannuated engineer (57 as of 10 days ago), but not, I hope, completely obsolete. I'm still always learning to work with new devices and applications. And I've managed make a comfortable living doing it.


Go into detail how one could make much money with microchips. And by detail I am talking about "including proof".

Do you mean "microchips" generically? Or Microchip's (the company's) products?

I don't know what for you constitutes "proof". I'm not going to post my designs or name my clients or disclose my earnings (that's between me and the IRS!). The intellectual properties belong to me, and my clients have a proprietary interest that I am contractually obliged to honor. Unlike Melanie, I don't know any people who have become millionaires, but I do know several who have made handsome sums of money from their designs.

It wasn't a PIC application, but I did have the good fortune to have a rather unique design go into space on shuttle mission STS-95 in 1998. It used a 68HC11; the code was done mostly in Small C and the rest in assembler.

Further deponent sayeth not. ;)

[selbstdual]

Great information.

[Normnet]

Originally Posted by Normnet:
Is BlackFin code in C?
What applications in Blackfin?
Norm

Originally answered by mister_e:
Variant of C/C++ and / Or assembler.

Mainly for multiformat audio, image processing, video. Pretty sure it's fast enough to generate color video without too much effort.

Since now i just updated some customer firmware and did some test. REALLY impressive, but... not something i would use daily.

regards
Steve


I am looking into Blackfin.
It seems to be the most powerfull uC available.
600 MHz, 32bit, interface to nand, DDR, SD, LCD, touchscreen, audio, ethernet, high speed USB and hosting, ATAPI hard drive, etc.

Drawbacks are in C, mostly BGA surface mount and IDE/compiler.

Which IDE/compiler are you using?

Norm

[mister_e]

Well, as usual when i decide to buy something i go crazy.. I byed everything which is not free or not given by Analog Device.

So go there
http://www.analog.com/processors/blackfin/evaluationDevelopment/crosscore/
Select everything from Software and Third Party Tools column in full version... and that's what i used.

How much for the whole thing??? :eek: Surprise surprise :eek:

[T.Jackson]

I byed everything which is not free or not given by Analog Device.


Bought mister_e, you bought everything.

[mister_e]

That really change my life ;)

Thanks Mr teacher ;)

[Acetronics2]

Bought mister_e, you bought everything.

Heuuuuuu, Trent

Would you do enjoy some French grammar game ???

Not sure you could beat " Dj Kiwi " on this playground - nor some others !!!

try to be somewhat humble ... if you've not understood that after this time on the forum ...

Alain

[GrandPa]

Would you do enjoy some French grammar game ???


Alain,

Premièrement tu dois dire "Would you enjoy some French grammar game?"

Deuxièmement, après un petit coup d'oeil a tes messages précédents et a celui-ci en particulier, si je peut dire une chose c'est que tu semble manquer toi-même d'humilité en général.

Third: Try to learn humility yourself, then teach others.

J-P

[Darrel Taylor]

Be nice! No country bashing.

Back to the subject.

I was recently pleased to find a 16F877 in a professionally built Variometer. (used to measure Lift/Sink in hang gliding).

A guy was changing the batteries in his, so I asked to take a look, and there it was. :)

I'm sure PIC's are in all kinds of stuff. But you never know till you take the case off.

_

[RussMartin]

I'm sure PIC's are in all kinds of stuff. But you never know till you take the case off.

There's a 16C742 in my toaster!

[T.Jackson]

Heuuuuuu, Trent

Would you do enjoy some French grammar game ???

Not sure you could beat " Dj Kiwi " on this playground - nor some others !!!

try to be somewhat humble ... if you've not understood that after this time on the forum ...

Alain

Don't worry Alain, mister_e is certainly smart enough to know that, that was a genuine attempt at helping someone improve on their English skills. Further more, I'm certain that mister_e is perfectly fluent in his own native language.

[Acetronics2]

Alain,

Premièrement tu dois dire "Would you enjoy some French grammar game?"

Hé, JP


> Si tu veux me donner des cours ... commence par prendre ton dico et regarde ce que signifie "forme emphatique ...".
Ensuite regardes comment on dit ça en Anglais ...

Après, on en reparle.


Deuxièmement, après un petit coup d'oeil a tes messages précédents et a celui-ci en particulier, si je peut dire une chose c'est que tu semble manquer toi-même d'humilité en général.

> Dommage que nous ne soyons pas en vis à vis, ça ferait de joyeux moments !!!
> Ceci dit ... je suis resté modeste 1è Classe ... Général, ça me gènait un peu...

Third: Try to learn humility yourself, then teach others.

> C'est quand tu veux !!!

Alain

> PS : Apparemment, tu n'as pas remarqué qu'il existe une équipe de joyeux drilles, sur ce Forum ...

J-P

Tapes toi une bonne mousse à ma santé .... ça ira mieux après !

[T.Jackson]

Tapes toi une bonne mousse à ma santé .... ça ira mieux après !

Tapes toi une bonne mousse à ma santé .... ça ira mieux après = (Type you a good one foams to my health.... that will go better after!)

Accurate translation?

[Acetronics2]

Hi, Trent

How are you ???

The kind translation is :

Have a good beer in my honour ( honour = a little approximate ...), and everything will be better for you after that ...


The less kind Translation :

You really become boring ...



I do love ( especially for you, GrandPa !!! ) French language ... some sentences can have "interesting" different meanings !!! ...

Best regards

"The Frenchie "

[Luciano]

Hi Alain,

(Google)

Your search - "Would you do enjoy some" - did not match any documents.

* * *

Wait a couple of days and Google will return one document!

Best regards,

Luciano

[Acetronics2]

Hi, Luciano

All my English books from school ( I've kept All of them ...) tell the same :

I enjoy = I like

I do enjoy = I really like ...

No need any American speaking google ...

Straight from my browser : " but I do like to see the Oprah show when... "

One other : http://www.di-arezzo.com/france/detail_notice.php?no_article=oupxx00360&aff=netbooster


Alain

PS: My teacher's comment " Excellent ... quand il veut s'en donner la peine !!! "

[mister_e]

There's a 16C742 in my toaster!

A 12C671 in one of my previous Weller soldering station.

[GrandPa]

Hi, Luciano
All my English books from school ( I've kept All of them ...) tell the same :

I enjoy = I like

I do enjoy = I really like ...


Alain,

I'm sorry that you had such poor english teachers.

"DO" est simplement le verbe faire.

It's also used several ways. The difference between "I enjoy" and "I do enjoy" is subtle. The first mean that it's the way you feel about it usually, while the second mean this is the way you feel about it actually (this time, in this case). I agree that a loose translation can be "really", because it's really happening, but it's incorrect to say that it mean really. BTW really translated to French is "réellement"

Then, if you do really understand this, you will find that this is incorrect to say "Would you do enjoy..", while "Would you do me a favor to stop this" is correct.

J-P

[mister_e]

I know one forum who have a 'improve your english' thread... not sure it this would worth to have it here :rolleyes:

I know my own limits, on the other side... i 'think' everybody understand what i say anyways.

Even better, Darrel have it's own Canadian to English (or Mister_e to english) dictionnary :D
http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=9464&postcount=8

Lazy? maybe... this is why i pay someone to translate and correct my Help-files and documents :D

Anyways, i appreciate Trent's comment on Buyed VS. Bought. No problem at all.

PS: J-P as in Jean Pierre ?

[Acetronics2]

Jean Pierre ...

To close the subject :

1) you take the "Harrap's shorter" Dictionnary to the DO page ( p.240 for my edition ...) move to the 2 Thirds of the examples and find :

" I do believe he is a thief : je crois VRAIMENT que c'est un voleur "
Equals : I really believe he's a thief


" he did go : Il y est BIEN allé "
Equals : he really went there


" do si down : allez vous vous asseoir ! "
Equals : Will you sit down !

" ... I do like tea : j'aime bien le thé "
Equals : I really like tea


What is against all the stupidities you are telling us !!!


Would you DO enjoy : Apprécierais-tu Vraiment ...
Equals : Would you really like ...?


2) you forget I exist.

3) you DO shut up : Tu t'écrases, à la fin !

THANKS

Alain

[T.Jackson]

Alain, GrandPa is correct. But your English is actually quite good. Same goes for mister_e.

[Luciano]

Hi Alain,

Thank you for the neologism!

http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9462/agooglewz4.th.png (http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9462/agooglewz4.png)
(Click to enlarge)

Best regards,

Luciano

[Acetronics2]

Everything in the Title !!!

Google is great ... LOL !!!

Alain

End Of File

[GrandPa]

I know one forum who have a 'improve your english' thread... not sure it this would worth to have it here

Agreed!




I know my own limits, on the other side...

Sadly, I can't say the same for everyone.



PS: J-P as in Jean Pierre ?
Yes, I'm Jean-Pierre, and I'm from Montreal too! (near Galerie d'Anjou)

P.S: On devrais peut-être se caler ensemble une bonne broue a la santé des Français un de ces quatres :D!!!

[mister_e]

World is so small :D

Yup, sounds good to me. I live in St-Hubert.

Call me when you want, my phone number is on my website.

Une biere ou douze ! :D

[Normnet]

Originally Posted by Normnet:
Is BlackFin code in C?
What applications in Blackfin?
Norm

Originally answered by mister_e:
Variant of C/C++ and / Or assembler.

Mainly for multiformat audio, image processing, video. Pretty sure it's fast enough to generate color video without too much effort.

Since now i just updated some customer firmware and did some test. REALLY impressive, but... not something i would use daily.

regards
Steve

Did you use BGA or LQFP?
How to mount BGA?

Norm

[mister_e]

I used both. Fortunately, i know someone in Montreal who can solder them for me with the right machine. I already tried with a heat gun... it worked.. but :D it's not something i would use for massive production.

There's still some BGA socket.. but... hum hum, a bit expensive.

see Mill-Max and Aries Electronics as starter.

[Normnet]

Did you use some of the pins, or all and make a 6 layer board to accommodate all the via's required to connect?

Norm

[mister_e]

Multilayer of course :)

They also have some development board available ~400$.
http://www.analog.com/processors/blackfin/evaluationDevelopment/evaluationKits.html

Which model do you plan to use?

[Normnet]

Which model do you plan to use?

Available in 176-LQFP:
ADSP-BF532SBSTZ400 $14.51ea DigiKey

Audio, GLCD and SD card in 4 bit mode.

Haven't seen a programmer outside of the development boards.

Norm

[leisryan]

French built mirages have picmicro embedded in their avionics!!! mostly pic16c84 hehehe

[Acetronics2]

Hi,

Mirages are really old "flying irons" ... from the 60's

and I'd be really surprised THOMSON Avionics HAD used PIC's ...

ST 62xx ... if you really want to Joke !!!

By the way ... did the SST plane use a "Flexible architecture" too ... LOL !!!



Mitsubishi ??? my toaster and my micro-wave oven are Mitsubishi.
A VTEC Engine do no need any "Megasquirt" or so ...
It's self sufficient ...

I keep my eyes on the road ... not the screen. That's why I'm 50 !!!
Alain

[leisryan]

Sir:
Here in the Philippines those breed of engines aren't for the average person what we usually can afford are those surplus made in japan we have gigatons of used engines and japanese automotive craps in here hehehe i'm still trying to get my luck what would be the best project to reused those japanese throw-aways and make money hehehe!!! GLCD from nokia seems to be a pretty headstart since we also have tons of Nokias here!!! hehehe i'm thinking tachometer gauges, pressure gauges etc. with a touch of graphics racing design for the car enthusiast!!! hehehehe "hard to make a living while studying at the same time" I really feel sorry we're just being treated as garbage disposal but it's our fault anyway!!! but HEY those trash are rembrandts with a touch of PIC!!!
Yours Trully,
Ryan

[RussMartin]

A few days ago, replacing my household thermostat, I discovered a PIC16LCR57C inside.

[Sergeant]

I was just browsing Jack Ganssle's web site and when I saw this bit (http://www.ganssle.com/articles/asmall.htm) excerpted below:

*************
I'm fascinated with Microchip's PIC16/17 processors, which seem to be squeezing into a lot of low end applications. These are cool parts. The smaller members of the family offer a minimum amount of compute capability that is ideal for simple, cost-sensitive systems. Higher-end versions are well suited for more complicated control applications

Designer's seem to view these CPUs as something other than computers. "Oh, yeah, we tossed in a couple of PIC16s to handle the microswitches," the engineer relates, as if the part were nothing more than a PAL. This is a bit different from the bloodied, battered look you'll get from the haggard designer trying to ship a 68030-based controller. The microcontroller is easy to use simply because it is stuffed into easy applications.

L.A. Gear sells sneakers that blink an LED when you walk. A PIC16C5x powers these for months or years without replacing the battery. Scientists tag animals in the wild with expendable subcutaneous tracking devices powered by these parts. Household appliances depend on PIC variants.

A friend developing instruments based on a 32 bit CPU discovered that his PLDs don't always properly recover from brown-out conditions. He stuffed a $2 Microchip controller on the board to properly sequence the PLD's reset signals, insuring recovery from low-voltage spikes. The part costs virtually nothing, required no more than a handful of lines of code, and occupies the board space of a small DIP. Though it may seem weird to use a full computer for this trivial function, it's cheaper than a PAL.

Not that there's anything wrong with PALs. Nothing is faster or better at dealing with complex combinatorial logic. Modern super-fast versions are cheap (we pay $12 in singles for a 7 nanosecond 22V10), easy to use, and their reprogramability is a great savior of designs that aren't quite right. PALs, though, are terrible at handling anything other than simple sequential logic. The limited number of registers and clocking options means you can't use them for complicated decision making. PLDs are better, but when speed is not critical a computer chip might be the simplest way to go.

As the industry matures lots of parts we depend on become obsolete. One acquaintance found the UART his company depended on no longer available. He built a replacement in a PIC16C74, which was pin-compatible with the original UART, saving the company expensive redesigns.

In the good old days of microcomputing hardware engineers also wrote and debugged all of the system's code. Most systems were small enough that a single, knowledgeable designer could take the project from conception to final product. In the realm of small, tractable problems like those just described, this is still the case. Nothing measures up to the pride of being solely responsible for a successful product; I can imagine how the designer's eyes must light up when he sees legions of kids skipping down the sidewalk flashing their L.A. Gears at the crowds.
*************

I remembered this thread and thought it would add some credibility to the "Professional" camp. Microchip hasn't sold 3 BILLION PICs to hobbyists alone!

[T.Jackson]

Microchip hasn't sold 3 BILLION PICs to hobbyists alone!

Probably about 0.02% of that 3 billion, if that!

[Normnet]

BGA solder


Fortunately, i know someone in Montreal who can solder them for me with the right machine. I already tried with a heat gun... it worked.. but it's not something i would use for massive production.


Found: http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp?page=products_bga
BGA up to 400 balls.
.27 and 1.0mm pitches.
.8 and .5mm in the future.

http://www.schmartboard.com:80/index.asp?page=products_qfp&id=116
QFP, 128 - 240 Pins 0.5mm Pitch

How do you program Blackwater micro's outside of the development board for production?
Socket programmer?
In circuit programming?
Schematic or link?

Norm

[Art]

Laugh out loud! People make money with brains, work, or gutsy risk taking
whatever their tools are, chips aren't much good on their own really,
what a silly question.
And proof ha ha.

[leisryan]

Does anybody in this forum, still go to Curches nowadays? hehehe kiddin'

[Ryan7777]

you'll never please this guy..
he's one of those people who think it takes at least a $20,000 piece of equipment to be sure that there is no ripple on a $10 regulated output wal-wart... i can tell you VERY important things to the worlds safety, (or your harm, if your a bad guy) contain PIC micros.... or whatever is at hand to do the job and get the job done for as cheap as possible.. you wouldnt believe the number of obsolete components in things you would think should be top of the line!! (use your imagination..). the point is, a good engineer or technician will make anything work perfectly if its important enough.. using whatever.. and how about radar? guess what, they still use... VACUUM TUBES.. yes, good ol' wwII era valves.. sure there are things that are brand spanking new out there that can do the same job.. but not as well at the power level's needed.. and why all this? because the war business doesnt drive the market.. consumer goods do. so while you enjoy your ipod with its 2000000 GHz processor spitting out your timberlake... remember that there ARE things out there that have no where near the power and do much, much more important jobs... that have to work no matter what... it all just depends on the need at hand. and look at the number of ipod failures.. lockups, bad firmware... every microcontroller can fail or have problems.

[presario1425]

selbstdual, would you consider Nike and iPod's engineers to be professionals? If your answer is yes, then check this out:

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=Nike_iPod-Internals

They seem to think a PIC16F688 is ok.

What about you?

[muddy0409]

OK, PICs in security equipment?
The range of panels made by CADDX (USA) and sold in Australia as NX-4, NX-8 etc by Direct alarm Supplies are ALL built around PICs.
Also the range of PARADOX panels (Canada), sold in Australia by Security Merchants also are built around PICs.
Bound to be more out there that I don't know about 'cos I don't use them..

[T.Jackson]

Bet your mouse has one - I recall reading that in the Silicon Chip magazine some many years ago. This was when PICs were first introduced into the publication back around 99. How about modern-day optical ones, is that statement still applicable?

[picnaut]

Hello,

I know that this post is a little late (a few months after-the-fact actually), but I’m sorry, Selbstdual is mentally challenged (I’d use the term “retard”, but I’m trying to be politically correct here). He obviously has no clue about engineering.

I work for a company that generates billions of dollars worth of revenue each year.
We have a strong presence in security, medical and safety.
We use PICs in lots of devices.
We also use Atmels in similar devices.

We had an interface board for a mobile video recorder (the kind the cops rely on) that used a PIC.
Well, we had to rev the board due to an obsolete OSD chip.
Since the original PIC code was written in assembly, and the engineer who was in charge of the re-design was an Atmel fan (and had a C-compiler), the PIC was replaced with an Atmel processor. That’s when we started having problems. The first wave of returns was caused by a code bug created by the engineer. It turned out to be easily fixed and we moved on. A year later we got another wave of returns. This time it was because Atmel made a small change without proper notification to their suppliers, or changing the part number, and our code broke because of it.

To make a long story short, a lot of a product’s reliability is dependent on the engineer not the part used. As for the PIC being a reliable part, Microchip has sold billions of them for a reason. There is no way, at their relatively low cost, that those sales were mainly to hobbyists. That’s a joke. One would have to be on glue to think so.

:)

Picnaut

[picnaut]

These guys ONLY use PICs in their devices and their equipment is responsible for protecting lives every day.

http://www.critical-environment.com/

P.S.
By the way, the company I work for...think "bees" and the movie "The Ring".

:)