StickOS

[ScaleRobotics]

This thread is about the StickOS (which is also used in hardware called soBasic http://www.sobasicsoeasy.com/). It is an operating system that allows development through a telnet like terminal. This interface can be made over the serial port, USB port, or wireless port. StickOS has been compiled to run on a few different types of chips. Two Microchip series that it can run on are the PIC32MX3 and the PIC32MX4 families.

A description from the www.cpustick.com (http://www.cpustick.com) website:

http://www.cpustick.com/images/bball.gif StickOS™ BASIC is an entirely MCU-resident interactive programming environment, which includes an easy-to-use editor, transparent line-by-line compiler, interactive debugger, performance profiler, and flash filesystem, all controlled thru an interactive command-line user interface. In StickOS, external MCU pins may be bound to “pin variables” for manipulation or examination, and internal MCU peripherals may be managed by BASIC control statements and interrupt handlers. A StickOS-capable MCU may be connected to a host computer via a variety of transports and may then be controlled by any terminal emulator program, with no additional software or hardware required on the host computer. Once program development is complete, the MCU may be configured to autorun its BASIC program autonomously.

For more information on this system, see this post for a few videos that describe the development/operating sytem: http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=13221&p=89397#post89397

[Bruce]

FYI: Just had several email conversations with Rich Testardi (the inventor behind StickOS), and he's one very likeable person, and someone that's very interested in making complex embedded control applications simple for students, and anyone else interested in embedded programming. With ZERO experience in embedded applications.

If these initial boards work as expected, we will for sure be producing a lot more with various options, including the MC13201 2.4GHz wireless chip on board for wireless programming & communcations between boards.

Imagine development programming a PIC32 via wireless with this simple system!

Pretty cool stuff.

[ScaleRobotics]

A heart-beat LED on a PIC32 processor running at 80MHz is pretty trivial stuff..;o)

Definately trivial, just wanted an LED on the board. StickOS already has it programmed (and allows it to be changed to any available IO), just wanted a pin to set it to, and it would be handy if the LED was on the board.

Thanks,

Walter

[Bruce]

Oh - great - the cost just went up by $0.001 per board...:)

Surface mount - or through-hole? Blue, red, green, yellow?

[Bruce]

OK guys - so far it's;

Me
Walter
Mark
Dave

Walter wants the BASIC Stamp type layout with header pads down both sides for a Stamp type board that can be inserted directly into a breadboard.

I prefer the board with header pads around the processor in a square type arrangement like an Explorer16 type PIM module - with an area large enough to place a small breadboard on top of the solder pad area.

That's 1 to 1, so we need at least one more vote to tip-the-scales, and we'll go with that design factor.

I've already started the board design, but have to wait for the final vote before moving on - so let me know ASAP.

I can have the board design ready long before we get the PIC32 controllers.

[Darrel Taylor]

Curious,

Are these the PIC Sticks that PBP already supports?
(PS1-5)

Or a different "Stick"?

[Bruce]

Hi Darrel,

These will be boards based on the PIC32MX440F512H-80I/PT running at 80MHz.

See this thread on the StickOS http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=13221 and the videos.

[rmteo]

Anyone notice how slow this is (considering it uses an 80MHz processor) - or am I missing something?

4383

[Bruce]

Slow - compared to what?

http://www.cpustick.com/mcus.htm

[Darrel Taylor]

These will be boards based on the PIC32MX440F512H-80I/PT running at 80MHz.
See this thread on the StickOS http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=13221 and the videos.

Oh, I see...

Didn't watch that thread after the "propeller" stuff.
Sorry, my bad.

What the hey, I'll take a couple.
Got a couple of brain cells left that need toasting.
That ought to do it. :eek:

I think you split the thread a little short though.
Didn't know what it was.

P.S. And fooy on the speed tests.
An empty FOR/NEXT is a terrible test of a "Systems" performance.

[mackrackit]

Bruce,
Being you have already started the board design I say go with the Explorer 16 type.

Blue SMD. :)

[ScaleRobotics]

A BASIC Stamp 2px Module does about 19,000 instructions per second. So it's definitely faster than that.

[Bruce]

Hey Darrel,

Yeah - I did stop that thread a tad short, but only because it totally didn't pertain to anything MeLabs related, so it was moved to off-topic - out of respect.

As for speed, what on earth would anyone expect when the whole user interface, compiler, and the works, is incorporated within the processor. What a silly question..;)

Got you down for 2 units.

[Bruce]

A BASIC Stamp 2px Module does about 19,000 instructions per second. So it's definitely faster than that.
And a low-end PIC running at a mere 4MHz (1 million instructions per second) stomps the living mud out of even the fastest BASIC Stamp..;)

And it only costs $0.99 VS 50 bucks.

[Bruce]

Dave,

Done. I'll make it with a blue SMD LED.

[Sneaky-geek]

Bruce,
PLEASE INCLUDE a port for a MEL U2. I wil take 2 also. I like the blue LED idea.

Thank you,
Terry
AKA
K9HA
Sneaky-geek

[mackrackit]

Bruce,
Just curious.
I have a rough count of a dozen units for folks here on forum:
Walter 3
Darrel 2
Sneaky 2
Malc 1?
Me. 4

How many can you do in a run with your oven?

[ScaleRobotics]

I have a rough count of a dozen units for folks here on forum:
Walter 3
Darrel 2
Sneaky 2
Malc 1?
Me. 4

Sorry, I never said. I have 3 chips coming that I will send. But I would like two boards, if that is ok? Someone else can use the third chip for theirs.

[Bruce]

Oh - I think we could build about 500 per day with so few components on a simple board like this, so keep em coming. We have a dual batch oven. Shove one set in one side, and others go in when you shove the hot batch out..;o)

Dave,

Can you keep the tally for me? I've got three commercial jobs to push out-the-door between now & next Friday, so it would be a BIG help!

Walter,

No problemo. We'll work out qtys once we have the boards & other stuff. I'll get initial quotes on the boards, hardware, etc, then we'll all get together to sort stuff out.

Never expected it to grow like this, but that's cool. We'll have more folks to bounce new ideas off of.

Been chatting a lot today with the StickOS creator. He's one very cool person. And a heck of a lot smarter than I am..;o)

Kinda nice talking to someone like that if you know what I mean.

[mackrackit]

Bruce,
I can keep the tally. No problem.

Walter,
note made :)

[tenaja]

I'll take two. More if they come out supercheap.

[Archangel]

And it only costs $0.99 VS 50 bucks.
Stamp's price caused me to avoid all micro controllers for YEARS !




Been chatting a lot today with the StickOS creator. He's one very cool person. And a heck of a lot smarter than I am..;o)

Kinda nice talking to someone like that if you know what I mean.
Oh Yeah !
It is exactly that which attracts many of us HERE.

I am not fully up to speed here, cause his video is a bit long . . . and I was getting sleepy . . . anyway if the price is moderate, sign me up for a couple of the first run too . . . I tend to agree with Walter about the header strips, but You're making it, as long as we can interface it without too much brain damage, it's good.

EDIT: OK, now up to speed, wow he talks fast, THAT LOOKS REALLY COOL ! OH YEAH, Deal me in. Please.

[Ioannis]

Please count me in too. Sorry I got on the train a little late!

Now about the chips. I think it is a little silly to order the chips here in Greece nd then send them back to you Bruce. Is there any chance to have it complete from you?

Pin headers for breadbording is my preference too, but you are the boss.

2-3 is OK for starters.

Ioannis

[Dave]

Bruce , What type of I/O hardware is going to be available? Will there be RS-232, USB, Voltage regulator, Reset button.... ect. onboard? If the schematic you are going to post looks applicable to prototyping then put me down for two.

Dave Purola,
N8NTA

[Bruce]

Ioannis,

We'll get the PICs. It would cost you more to ship them here than the cost of the PICs.


What type of I/O hardware is going to be available? Will there be RS-232, USB, Voltage regulator, Reset button.... ect. onboard? If the schematic you are going to post looks applicable to prototyping then put me down for two.

I was planning to keep the boards as simple as possible. Like these;

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9645

http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/

Which type would everyone prefer? The layout with pins on both side, or the Sparkfun type board?

[mark_s]

Hi Bruce,

I'll vote with Walter on a BS2 style board (breadboard plugable). Put me down for two.

I am curious. For instance you want to use a LCD charactor display. We have no "LCDOUT" command. I am assuming we go retro and write subroutines like the original stamp programs or Pic Basic? I need to study the user manual and example some more.

Thanks
Mark

[ScaleRobotics]

I am curious. For instance you want to use a LCD charactor display. We have no "LCDOUT" command. I am assuming we go retro and write subroutines like the original stamp programs or Pic Basic?

It looks like you go retro, as you say. Or you can just use a serial LCD display. There are definitely some things that are not here, but it looks like it can do a lot with what it does have. Perfect for simple projects, or getting beginners into the mix. Might even pull more newcomers into upgrading to PicBasicPro, after they have the basic skills, and learned some of the logic.

Here is the quick reference guide: http://www.cpustick.com/downloads/quickref.v1.70.pdf

[wolwil]

Sounds like a good way to fry some cells, put me down for 2 if the price is right - bread board style :cool:

What are we looking at for a ballpark price???

[mackrackit]

I was planning to keep the boards as simple as possible. Like these;

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9645

http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/

Which type would everyone prefer? The layout with pins on both side, or the Sparkfun type board?
If we still have a choice and the above are the two options I think the second one would be better in the long run.

[Bruce]

OK. If everyone's happy with the Stamp-like module with pins down both sides, then we'll go with that. If not - let me know ASAP. I'm in a holding pattern until it's decided.:o

[Nicmus]

If I understand it correctly there will be an initial load of the OS. I do not have the tools to do that but, if it comes preprogrammed or somebody can do it for me, count me in with 4.

Thanks,

Nick

[Bruce]

All boards will be pre-programmed & tested with the StickOS. It will be up to you, and everyone else, that gets a board, to read the instruction manual on how to setup & use the board.

[tenaja]

OK. If everyone's happy with the Stamp-like module with pins down both sides, then we'll go with that. If not - let me know ASAP. I'm in a holding pattern until it's decided.:o

I'm good with that.

Do we have a price guesstimate yet?

[Nicmus]

I'm in with 4 if is not too late.

Nick

[mackrackit]

This is what I have for the tally so far. If anyone sees something that is wrong let me know.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkDUBJO-ka2ZdEpkajhPVkREY01BMWc2TU9abUZzVWc&hl=en

Bruce,
Do you have a cut off date for this?

[Ioannis]

Ioannis,

We'll get the PICs. It would cost you more to ship them here than the cost of the PICs.



Many thanks Bruce. I vote for the Stamp-like too.

Ioannis

[Bruce]

No cut off date yet, and no cost estimates yet. Can't get to costs until I've finished the board, received quotes on those, and have a full BOM ready.

I have a few projects to finish first, and then will get moving on the board. It's already started, but have to wait to get my samples in.

[ScaleRobotics]

I have a few projects to finish first, and then will get moving on the board. It's already started, but have to wait to get my samples in.

Hello Bruce,

You should receive my PIC32 samples in the mail tomorrow. Hope work is slow for you .... (briefly of course)!

Thanks!

Walter

[jrprogrammer]

I sent 6 chips via Priority Mail. I only need 3 back on the board, so you will have 3 to donate or deduct off the board charge.. StickOS looks real interesting...
JR

[mackrackit]

I sent 6 chips via Priority Mail. I only need 3 back on the board, so you will have 3 to donate or deduct off the board charge.. StickOS looks real interesting...
JR
You have been added to the list.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkDUBJO-ka2ZdEpkajhPVkREY01BMWc2TU9abUZzVWc&hl=en

[Bruce]

OK. I'm closing the offer now so I don't have to build 10K of these. If they get popular down the road we can make & sell them to anyone not already in on the group buy.

I have about 1 more week or so to finish a job, then I'll get busy on these. I have received my 3 samples, some from Dave and Walter.

[ScaleRobotics]

Thanks Bruce, I think these are going to be fun!

Here is something that exists, only hard to find, and almost as expensive as the others:

4433

http://mysite.verizon.net/reswwg6r/id9.html

And I found this at the Mikroe site. Lots of bells and whistles (not claimed to be compatible with StickOS). And the graphic lcd would certainly be very difficult, if not impossible to interface with using StickOS. But interesting....

http://www.mikroe.com/eng/products/view/318/pic32mx4-multimedia-board/

4432

Walter

[ScaleRobotics]

Hey Bruce,

No rush, especially since you are doing all the work. Just wondering if you had any updates. No worries though.

Thanks,

Walter

[Bruce]

Almost ready. Have a few parts to lookup for BOM, and some hand-routing to finish, but I'll post here when it's ready.

[Bruce]

In the process of selecting parts. Anyone have a problem with tiny surface mount switches that may require the end of a pen or something similar to press, or would you prefer a raised button you can press with a finger?

Last part to select - so please let me know ASAP.

[mackrackit]

What ever you think is good with me.
StickOS
StickPress Buttons :)

[ScaleRobotics]

Anyone have a problem with tiny surface mount switches that may require the end of a pen or something similar to press


No problem with small switches here.

[tenaja]

In the process of selecting parts. Anyone have a problem with tiny surface mount switches that may require the end of a pen or something similar to press, or would you prefer a raised button you can press with a finger?

Last part to select - so please let me know ASAP.
I'll likely swap it out if it's not tool-less... or never use it.

[ScaleRobotics]

Hey Bruce,
I know you are a busy man. But any updates on the StickOs project?

I noticed that someone is making a zigflea wireless board for the SparkFun StickOS product. Here is the link: http://overtone-labs.ning.com/profiles/blogs/zigflea-board-for-cui32

Thanks,

Walter

[Bruce]

Sorry for the delay Walter. I'll see if I can't get this ready by Monday.

[Bruce]

Walter,

Here's a couple of screen captures of the board so far. I've attached the DipTrace board file also if anyone wants to have a go at making it better, smaller, etc. It would be nice if someone else verified all connections also.

It's similar to the SparkFun board, but I dropped the USB host option, rearranged things a lot, and attempted to make it Stamp-Like, but it's tough to route if you keep the headers close enough together to insert in a small breadboard, and I did NOT want to go any smaller than 0805 resistors/caps.

Board size is 3.2" x 1.8". The smaller capture is 100%. The large is blown-up so you can see everything with connections.

I can have a BOM ready in a day or two, but will wait for feedback, changes, yada-yada...;o)

[Darrel Taylor]

Bruce,

What kind of breadboard will they fit into?

If JP6 is 0.1" spacing, then JP5 and JP7 are 1.5" apart.
But all my solderless breadboards are 1.1" max.

The headers would end up in one of the power rails.

[Darrel Taylor]

Duh! Nevermind.

It would go across the power rails between two breadboard strips.

Sorry, I'm just excited about it.

Carry On.

[Bruce]

Hi Darrel,

I suppose it could be done, but the board would be pretty long, and there wouldn't be any room for labels on the connection headers. The 64-pin PIC32 TQFP package is pin-to-pin/side-to-side 12mm wide, so you have little to no room.

[Darrel Taylor]

No problem.

I'm sure it will work just like this ...

4724

In fact, it fit so well I figure you must have designed it that way.

Works for me.

[ScaleRobotics]

Looks great Bruce. Yeah, I kind of hoped it would fit on ONE breadboard, but that sure is a lot of I/O! I have two or three breadboards to put it on if I need to.

One other thing. What kind of USB connector is that? It looks like one of the printer styles, but I could be wrong. Not sure why I think it matters, but it would be cleaner to keep the low profile over the whole thing and do a smt mini usb connector instead. Who knows, someone might want to send this thing up in a model airplane or rocket or something. (Maybe that's just me :) )

Thanks a bunch Bruce.

Walter

[Bruce]

3 breadboards! Yikes...:eek:

I'm putting female headers on mine for the analog pins.

I could suck-it-in for a version that would drop right into a standard single breadboard, but I'm just not in the mood to sit & hand-assemble 30+ boards under a microscope for a freebie...:rolleyes:

And - it's really a drag for someone that gets one to replace any parts < 0805 by hand.

If someone prefers SMD switches, I can change that, but they're normally more expensive. I definitely do not want the SMD USB-A connector. These things tend to rip-off & lift traces with just a little wiggle. I tried really hard to keep it super cheap, but I'm open to feedback if someone wants something changed.

You should be able to edit/view it with the free version of DipTrace. The raw file is there if anyone wants to have a go at making it better or smaller.

Walter - the mini USB connectors are a pain, and not everyone has those teeny cables. I used a standard through-hole A type for stability, and it's easier for me to assemble. And - if we used the SMD mini USB connector, it's way too easy to rip-off the board if you lift up on the USB cable. These need to be installed in an enclosure (like say a PICKit2 or 3) where the enclosure itself provides support.

[mackrackit]

I do not have a problem with three bread boards.

It all looks good to me Bruce!

THANKS!!!

[ScaleRobotics]

I'm putting female headers on mine for the analog pins.

That's a good idea!



I could suck-it-in for a version that would drop right into a standard single breadboard, but I'm just not in the mood to sit & hand-assemble 30+ boards under a microscope for a freebie...:rolleyes:
Can't blame you there, totally understand.



If someone prefers SMD switches, I can change that, but they're normally more expensive. I definitely do not want the SMD USB-A connector. These things tend to rip-off & lift traces with just a little wiggle. I tried really hard to keep it super cheap, but I'm open to feedback if someone wants something changed.

I don't see a need for smt switches, and I can get by with whatever USB connector, or pinout you put on it.



You should be able to edit/view it with the free version of DipTrace. The raw file is there if anyone wants to have a go at making it better or smaller.

Looks like a nice layout, and I know I will be happy with the silkscreen labeling, so I don't have to refer back and forth to a pdf file. Not too big, and with your idea of the female header for the analog, I'll be able to fit it on one of my larger breadboards (not three).



Walter - the mini USB connectors are a pain, and not everyone has those teeny cables. I used a standard through-hole A type for stability, and it's easier for me to assemble. And - if we used the SMD mini USB connector, it's way too easy to rip-off the board if you lift up on the USB cable. These need to be installed in an enclosure (like say a PICKit2 or 3) where the enclosure itself provides support.
Bruce, I totally agree with you keeping the cost down, and you have done an excellent job. I know that this kind of project takes time, even for someone as professional as you, so thank you again for jumping in and offering to do this!

As for the mini-usb, I can see your point of not wanting to install them, and I can live with that just fine. But I have purchased plenty of cheap boards from Sparkfun, Microchip, Olimex, and other board manufacturers who include a mini USB connector on their board, but offer no case. Don't take me wrong, I am just saying that in my opinion, I don't think they "need" to be installed in an inclosure. But I agree that would make them stand up to more use/abuse.

Your pinout would certainly be one of the most durable, compact, and cheap. So by all means, I agree it is a good way to go. Just think a few people will have to make an easy cable to connect it with.

[Bruce]

OK here's one that fits on a breadboard. Headers from side-to-side are 0.9" so you'll have 1 hole left over on the outside edges for wire. Board edges will hang over a tad, but it now fits. Overal size is now 3.1" x 1.475".

Changed the 1x16 analog header to a 2x8 so that fits, and added Walters Mini USB connector.:p

If someone else with Diptrace could verify all connections it would be a big help. It's passed DRC at Freedfm.com, but a second set of eyes might catch something I missed.

The .ZIP file contains the Diptrace board design.

[ScaleRobotics]

Wow! You shouldn't have (but I love it!). Thanks again. I can't wait.

I will try to look over the board with Diptrace tonight, but doubt I will be able to find anything.

[Bruce]

No problemo. I dorked-up the 1st one with the wrong 64-pin TQFP package type anyhow, so I had to change it. The PIC32 we're using is 10x10x1 with 0.5 lead pitch. That just made it even harder to route, but did give up a teeny bit more realestate.

It needs to fit on a breadboard anyhow since it's not dev-board size, so I spent a few hours changing it around. A 2x8 female header for the analog pins should make it nicer than the 1x16.

And I went by the datasheet VS the Sparkfun schematic for the VUSB connection (pin #35) to the cap. It's not crystal-clear what they're doing with this pin. It shows ---> with 3.3V just below it. Not sure if they didn't connect this pin or if they ran it to the other 3.3V connections with --->3.3V?

It could be a LOT smaller with < 0805 components, but it wouldn't be anything I would even consider assembling by hand unless it was just 1 or 2 units. And the price per board would definitely go up, so I'm leaving it at this size.

I'm going to get in touch with Rich on a clone connector. If I have room, I'll try to squeeze that in too. Then you could connect 2 boards & clone them, but that's a big maybe. If it turns out to be a hot item, I'll make it really small, and probably even ad the wireless, but I'll have someone else assemble them. I just want 1 to mess with to see how it works with the BASIC OS for starters.

[Nicmus]

I believe that having the board wireless ready (even if the involved parts are not populated) will be a big plus.

I am also interested on USB host feature (if possible) which might solve the well known problem of depending on FTDI chips and modules as the only source of USB host capability for hobbyists. Grouping these pins and making them available to the user in a USB connector fashion arrangement or any other way will add value to the board at no expense.

In any case, I just can’t wait to try this new device.

Regards,

Nick

[Bruce]

Walter,

Use this latest version. It's been optimized for a better ground plane, and clearance.

Nick,

I may include wireless & USB host in a later version, but not this 1st prototype. But you're welcome to use the existing board file if you like to ad new options. I'm just short on time at present.

[Ioannis]

Hi Bruce. Very impressive job! Well done!

To ease things for you, maybe just assemble the smd parts on your pick and place machine, then let us assemble the rest, through hole parts, like a kit.

I believe this will save you a lot of time.

Ioannis

[ScaleRobotics]

And I went by the datasheet VS the Sparkfun schematic for the VUSB connection (pin #35) to the cap. It's not crystal-clear what they're doing with this pin. It shows ---> with 3.3V just below it. Not sure if they didn't connect this pin or if they ran it to the other 3.3V connections with --->3.3V?


It wasn't clear at all to me. I located the source files of the CUI32. Here is a view of how they really have it connected... Following the datasheet sounds like a good idea.

I looked over the obvious on your pcb, and I can't find any mistakes. Pin6 of the programming header doesn't go anywhere, but you probably knew that.

Thanks,

Walter

4735

[Bruce]

Thanks Walter. I'm guessing they have the internal Vreg disable, so I changed it.

This is the final version unless someone notices something wrong. It has a lot of spacing changes, copper pour islands removed, and has passed DRC.

I'm attaching the BOM, Gerber files, and the final CAD file so anyone can get quotes on boards & component prices if they like, or modify the original design as needed.

I have a bunch of parts on-hand like resistors, caps, /MCLR diode, etc, and some female headers if people want to use them for the analog pins - so it will save everyone a few bucks. See the notes in the BOM for whatever I have a ton of in stock already.

For a few parts I've included part #s for Mouser & DigiKey, but everyone's welcome to lookup cheaper parts if they can find them.

Ioannis,

Thanks, but my pick & place machine is a pair of SMD tweezers..:rolleyes: That's why I didn't want to go with any parts smaller than 0805 since I'll be placing them all by hand.

As for the through-hole parts, I don't mind installing the 2 switches, but the headers I'm going to leave to everyone else to install themselves.

Note: A few manufacturers from China have contacted me asking to quote on PCBs and full assembly of these, so I have attached pretty much all files they'll need to do so. You can contact me directly if you're interested.

[ScaleRobotics]

Here are some possibilities for the LED's:
Digikey 160-1414-1-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=160-1414-1-ND) Green 805 LED $0.12 each
Mouser EL-17-21/BHC-AN1P2/3T Blue 805 LED $0.20 each

[Ioannis]

Thanks, but my pick & place machine is a pair of SMD tweezers..

Ooh, I see. I thought you had the magic machine...

In that case why not send the parts and PCB to assemble it? It will save your valuable time. I suppose all we that ordered the StickOS can do this.

You have done a lot of work on this project and thank you very much for this.

As for the Chinese, what is their MOQ?

Ioannis

[mackrackit]

Bruce,
I agree with Ioannis. The reason I sent you my four chips is because I thought you had the magic machine. I can do the assembly with my tweezers. ;)

So if it is any help just bag the stuff for me and let me know what I owe you.

[Nicmus]

I completely agree with Ioannis and Mackrakit that Bruce had done a lot for this project so if Bruce decides to send out kits I’m supporting it 100%.

One thing I’m not too clear is if we all should have send Bruce the blank chips (I didn’t) or he will be ordering them. Also I'm not sure if Bruce can do the initial programming of the chips before installing them.

I have a couple suggestions related with this project:

By now Bruce should have a fairly good idea what the cost per kit (assembled or not) should be but he has no financial backing from us. So to avoid this financial burden on him my suggestion is to have each of the participants in the program send their financial support. I personally suggest estimating it on the plus side just to make sure that Bruce doesn’t take a hit on this aspect also.

Even if there is a dedicated forum for StickOS users I suggest opening a separate section in this forum for this new project. It will make it much easier for the members of this forum to exchange information about this particular project.

Regards,

Nick

[ScaleRobotics]

I agree with everyone as well.......... Bruce has over done his generosity.

However, it sounds like my toaster oven skill level is not up to par with everyone else. I am at the "never done it" level. Speaking of off topic, can I get some feedback on how everyone else is soldering their 64 pin devices?

I have watched a few videos on the toaster oven technique (sparkfun). I do not have a ramp controller on the toaster I purchassed to try this. I do have some solder paste, but obviously will not have a stencil. I have seen it done a few ways, from a syringe of solder paste, to a solder iron applying solder in a pre-application to "toasting".

Can anyone elaborate on an "easy" way to do this. I am leaning toward offering $ for a working device, but obviously in the minority. Would love to be a member of the majority though!

[Nicmus]

Few tips and tricks I’m using:

• Keep your soldering iron tip clean all the time (use wet sponge) and re-tin the tip periodically (nothing helps better than a clean tip)
• Use a reliable soldering iron (I’m using Metcal) that can maintain the tip temperature when touching the pads
• Use a pointy flat at the very end tip not necessarily the thinnest. This shape works for me better than pointy round tips when dealing with multiple pin devices
• Add extra flux (fresh brownish resin type) it makes the solder flow better and avoids bridges
• Use lower temperature solder (leaded one is much easier to wok with)
• Keep your soldering iron temperature few degrees higher than normal but not too high so it oxidates too quickly
• Find solder as thin as possible (I’m personally using 0.3mm which I’m not sure is readily available)
• Make sure your pads do not have extra solder on them before you install the device (use solder wick to remove the excess)
• When soldering two pins components add solder on one pad. While holding the soldering iron on the pad hold the component with the tweezers in a slight angle so the pin you working with lands first on the pad and slide it in place. Finish by soldering the other pad. When soldering multiple pins chips add solder on one pad, slide the component in position while holding your soldering iron on the pad. Make sure all the pins are aligned with the pads. Unsolder and repeat this step until you have perfect alignment. It makes next steps much easier. When done aligning solder one more pin on opposite corner of the chip.
• Apply solder only where needed not on the tip first and then to the board.
• To finish a multiple pin device work one whole side at the time not pin by pin
• Add flux (on the side of the device over the pins and pads) with a fine tip dispenser if your solder has too little or none
• Hold your soldering iron on the first pin of the line you working on (if the tip has the small flat I mentioned above hold the flat on the pin). The axis of the soldering iron should be held at about 45 - 60 degree in reference to the board. Pull few inches on solder and using the other hand to hold it try to place its end right at the point of contact between the tip and board. While gently pushing down the tip slowly start sliding it over the pins on that side. In the same time make sure you feed fresh solder at the contact point and the tip does not starve.
• I prefer to kind of over feed solder which usually sticks with the iron and does not create bridges and get rid of it by quickly shaking the iron
• If any bridges use flux and solder wick.
• For uniformity and professional look, especially if you had to fix bridges, run the soldering iron once more over the affected sides and add solder only if necessary
• Last but not least it is important to use nonmagnetic tweezers especially when dealing with smaller sizes components
• Use Head Cleaner to clean when finished soldering. Flux remover has the tendency to leave a whitish film and it is much harsher on certain plastics. For better results when cleaning the flux I use acid brushes. I cut their bristles short for more stiffness

Following these simple guidelines, even with my failing eyes, I can still replace (that includes removing a defective chip and installing a new one) 64 – 100 pin chips in about two minutes and toy with 0402 or 0201 components without any problems.

After all this is not rocket surgery .

HTH

Regards,

Nick

[mackrackit]

If you want to do the "oven" method here is a primer
http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/content.php?r=105-SMD-Prototyping
and I will add a bit...

Do not worry about the paste bridging, when heated it will flow to the metal. On these small parts the paste will bridge as it is almost impossible to apply the paste to one pin at a time. I end up "smearing" a little paste across the pads and during alignment (sliding the part around) the paste will "bridge". Not to much paste though, it is easier to add more than "wicking" it off.

My oven is unmodified. Get one with a heating element selector and use the bottom element only. Set the temperature to 350 and the timer for 10 minutes, you may need to increase the time with larger or multiple boards. Put the PCB on a thin piece of aluminum plate (1/16 inch) to even out the heat when it sits on the grill.

Put the PCB in a "cold" oven when doing the 10 minute thing, at the end of 10 minutes or just before you will see the paste flow. When you get to doing several boards a day and the oven is pre-heated you will have to work out the time per batch.

Best thing to do is just play with it some like the link to the wiki article shows.
Like Nick said "After all this is not rocket surgery ."

[ScaleRobotics]

Like Nick said "After all this is not rocket surgery ."

Maybe not, but perhaps a little bit of brain science is involved. ;)

Thanks guys, I will give it a go. Appreciate the tips from you two.

Walter

[mark_s]

I also agree, special Thanks to Bruce!

I have had very good results with a Walmart electric skillet and a IR thermometer from Harbor freight. I preheat the boards to around 180 F. Then turn it up to full heat, once the solder paste has flowed you turn it off and let cool. Its like magic when it melts!
The idea is descibed in a Sparkfun tutorial

Dave's advice on less solder paste is really good, which I have learned the hard way.

Regards
Mark

[ScaleRobotics]

Rich has added a few neat features in v1.80, like I2C. Check out 2.2 in http://www.cpustick.com/stickos.htm (and all other improvements in red).

[rmteo]

Any news on this?

[ScaleRobotics]

I tried to upload Bruce's gerber files (from post# 67) to Sparkfun's BatchPCB (http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Products) site, but I received a message saying " Unfortunately, your design "Bruce__s UBW32" violates our design rules of 8 mil traces with 8 mil trace spacing."
5102

I am getting a quote on 30 boards from www.pcb-pool.com (http://www.pcb-pool.com) for the design v2.6 located here: http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/doc/BoardReleaseNotes.html

5100

It looks to be less than $5.00 for each board

Will let you know more when I get an official quote.

Walter

[Bruce]

Hi Walter,

I sent you some updated Gerbers, but I don't think you received the email so I'm posting them here. Just in case someone else wants to try making a prototype.

Sorry I haven't had time to move on this. We sold our big oven before the move, and our desktop unit went ker-flop shortly afterwards, so I'm not doing much fine pitch assembly.

I increased the spacing, trace widths, etc to 8 mil. Note I haven't made a prototype of this yet, but anyone that wants to is welcome to the files. Guess I better start returning a few chips too. Sorry. If it ain't one thing it's another.

[rmteo]

Did the quote look reasonable?

[ScaleRobotics]

Did the quote look reasonable?

I tried uploading Bruce's newest layout to batchpcb, but still got some "errors" on clearance (allowable clearance for batchpcb). I am not familiar enough with Dip Trace to make the batchpcb required changes to Bruce's board. I had planned on getting one board made through batchpcb, before getting a larger quote.

So at this point, it seems best for me to get the slightly smaller UBW32 board made (http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8971).

I have a quote from http:www.pcb-pool.com (http://www.pcb-pool.com) for 30 of the UBW32 boards for $6.50 each. I think this is very reasonable. If there is still enough interest from people wanting to populate their own boards, let me know, and I will start the order. Otherwise it is almost double the cost in singles from batchpcb, plus (I think plus) a $10 fee. So a larger order, is definitely the way to go for costs.

Let me know what you guys think of the UBW32 v. 2.6 (http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/doc/BoardReleaseNotes.html) circuit board for $6.50 plus shipping. UBW32 Site (http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/)

You might notice that the v.2.6 board can be populated with two different chips. From the UBW32 website:
Created two board versions, one called MX460 and one called MX795: Only difference is silk screen of board name, otherwise they are identical. But I don't think StickOS is available yet for MX795.

Walter

[Bruce]

I ran this set of Gerbers through the batchpcb DRC and it passed. Looks like they have 8mil limits on spacing for less than 4 layer boards.

Sorry. Forgot to include the DipTrace file.

[ScaleRobotics]

Thanks Bruce!

I loaded Bruce's latest design to BatchPCB.com. Here is the link, (at cost) at $11.50 each http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Products/53019

I will probably get to an order in a week or three. If anyone else wants to give it a go, feel free. Bruce's board and the UBW32 board are about the same area, so the cost for an order of 30 should be pretty close. Might be closer to $7.00 each for Bruce's board, where the UBW32 would be $6.50.

Please chime in. I would like to see if people are still interested, and if so, which board.

Or, I could just put both boards on batchpcb, and those interersted could place their orders.

Let me know.

Thanks,

Walter

[ScaleRobotics]

Please chime in. I would like to see if people are still interested, and if so, which board.

Maybe folks have lost interest in this. Bruce's board can be purchased in singles from batchpcb here (http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Products/53019). Only bad part, is they charge a $10.00 handling charge for each order. Not too bad if you find some other boards in there that you like. I tried uploading the UBW32 (http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/) to batchpcb, and that board fails their 8 mill spacing requirement. Kind of makes you wonder where they have this one (http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8971) made! And things are tight enough on that board, that I doubt it could be made to pass batchpcb. (slightly lower quality PCB production I guess). So for either board, cheaper alternatives would only be available with a group buy. But then again, you kind of need a group for a group buy.:)

[mackrackit]

I have not lost interest, just have not had the time to worry about it.

I guess I could send you the money for four boards if that will help with an order, I sent four chips to Bruce so I am still in it, should do something with the parts.

Let me know.

[cncmachineguy]

Walter, How many more do you need for a "group"? This looks intresting to me. Not sure what I need it for, but when do I ever know that - LOL

[ScaleRobotics]

Thanks guys, just didn't want to have all 30 for myself :eek:. If you two are interested, chances are a few more will be later. I'll put in an order this week.

Walter

[mackrackit]

Which ones are you getting? Does not matter to me, just curious.

[ScaleRobotics]

Only because I like the way it fits on my breadboard, I chose the UBW32.
5169

Bruce's board is available on the BatchPCB site (http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Products/53019)

[mackrackit]

Does the UBW32 takes the same chip as Bruce's board? And what will the cost be per board? I think you said but I do not know for sure.

[ScaleRobotics]

Does the UBW32 takes the same chip as Bruce's board? And what will the cost be per board? I think you said but I do not know for sure.

Thanks for Asking Dave! I stupidly thought they were the same package. The UBW32 uses the 100 pin package, Bruce's design (and the CUI32) use the 64 pin PIC32MX440F512H chip. Let me do an about face ... Will order up one of Bruce's boards from BatchPCB and build it up. When all works as planned will place a larger order.

Thanks for catching me.

[dhouston]

I ran this set of Gerbers through the batchpcb DRC and it passed. Looks like they have 8mil limits on spacing for less than 4 layer boards.Bruce,

I have not followed the thread so am not completely clear on the exact size, minimum trace/space and quantity desired but I got a $96 (includes shipping) online quote from ezPCB for 30 pcs 3.100 x 1.475 with 4 mil trace/space and 8 day delivery. I've used them and they do excellent work.http://ezpcb.com/

[cncmachineguy]

After reading a little more about this, Put me down for sure. I have no problem with 4 or 5. As I think about this, I may even have some uses in mind. :) Thanks to all who have put so much work into this!!

[Ioannis]

OK, I am still in.

What size parts wll be used?

I am getting old I guess and my eyes do not focus very close :(

Ioannis

[ScaleRobotics]

OK, I am still in.

What size parts wll be used?

I am getting old I guess and my eyes do not focus very close :(

Ioannis

Yeah, I am having the same trouble. Might have to up my reading glasses magnification.....

But the toaster makes it a lot easier. We are back to a 64 pin PIC32MX440F512H, if that makes it any better.

Also looks like dhouston found a cheaper source for the boards, so once I get a single running, I'll try them out for a larger order.

[Ioannis]

Does this head mounted gadget give a good stereoscopic view?

Ioannis

[rmteo]

Does this head mounted gadget give a good stereoscopic view?

Ioannis
I use a similar magnifier when working with SMD's (components to 0402 and pin pitch to 0.65mm). They do give good depth perception - if that is what you mean by stereoscopic view.

[Ioannis]

Thanks for the reply. Yes that was what I meant.

Ioannis

[ScaleRobotics]

Ok, it took about three weeks, but I just received my order from batchpcb / Sparkfun. The board looks pretty good! Thanks again Bruce! I still need to get a few parts to put it together though. Once it works, I will place an order for at least 40. Sounds like dhouston found a pretty good deal from ezpcb, so I'll probably give them a try. Here's a picture of the board. The good thing about this order (not sure if this was just a fluke) was I got two of all 3 boards I ordered, but I only paid for 1 each of the three.... Anyone else tried them before?

Edit: One out of the six boards I received has some problems. It just happens to be on one of the StickOS boards. The trace E1 on the back side of the board wasn't fully etched, and in at least two places, this trace goes to ground. The other boards don't show signs of this problem. Probably just another fluke..... Anyway, here is a picture of the pretty side.....

5288

And ugly side....

5289

Well, at least they gave me one free one, I guess I can't complain. And after a little work with an exacto knife, they both should work.

[Ioannis]

Thats great! Despite the little shorts. A knife would make the job OK.

Looking forward for the working board :)

Ioannis

[Heckler]

Does this head mounted gadget give a good stereoscopic view?

Google "bausch lomb magna visor"... around $30 USD on Amazon.

You will not be dissapointed! I use mine with my regular perscription eye glasses on.
Like a breath of fresh air when you need the detail.

I highly recomend them for electronic work.

[rmteo]

Any impressions of StickOS and/or PIC32?

[rtestardi]

> But I don't think StickOS is available yet for MX795.

It is now. :-)

-- Rich