How about a thread that replaces RTFM and RTFDataSheet:

[blainecf]

Rather than reply to a newbie: RTFM..., how 'bout a thread with a short primer on Data Sheets that outlines the sections of a DataSheet, and matches up the types of questions a new person would have to the appropriate section.

Why? Because RTFM is just an insult (doesn't really help), and the DataSheets are a bit overwhelming to someone just starting out.

Of course, doing someone else's thinking for them doesn't help either.

We all learn at different paces, in different ways, with VERY different motivations, limitations, and expectations.

A village/community/forum should be kind to everyone, even the (village) idiot.

An excellent quote: "The worst thing you can do for a person is doing something they can and should do for themself!!!"

[Archilochus]

Hi Blaine,
That's a fairly easy one - just start a thread with an appropriate title, and start adding ideas as they come up.
Problem is that after a while the thread will be as long as an average data sheet, most folks won't take the time to read it, and everyone will just start saying RTFT (Read The F*****g Thread) instead of RTFM.

Arch

[Acetronics2]

Hi, Blaine

As you will notice on this Forum, there are people decided to learn and people decided to wait for others to make the job ... newbie or not !!!

You will ALSO note a very high correlation ratio between the famous "RTFM" and the second kind of people.

So, I think it is not so stupid to explain them they are a "little" boring ...

I'm not the elder here, but for years, I've never found a gentle question, showing the author has already tried to find a solution, answered by one of those "terrible" words ( RTFM or RTFDS ).

That shows people answering generally try to read threads between the lines ...

Alain

PS: just try a while to understand what my signature means ... you'll be surprised !!!

[garryp4]

The manual comes in French? The data sheet does not always have the info needed. What is the minimum +vref for a 18F2520? After I RTFM I CNFTFA (could not find the 'french' answer). It is possible I may have missed it after looking 3 times. Maybe someone in this group knew. Microchips answer was 1.2v. But at supply voltage? Again CNFTFA.

[skimask]

The manual comes in French? The data sheet does not always have the info needed. What is the minimum +vref for a 18F2520? After I RTFM I CNFTFA (could not find the 'french' answer). It is possible I may have missed it after looking 3 times. Maybe someone in this group knew. Microchips answer was 1.2v. But at supply voltage? Again CNFTFA.

Yep, RTFM...
PIC18F2520 datasheet, Table 26-24, Parameter A20, A21, A22. If you do the math and factor in the minimum voltages for the chip, you'll come up with 1.2v, just like the datasheet says.

[Pic_User]

In addition to questions that NEED an answer like:
“look at the, easy to get information, before you ask THAT question”.

There seems to be a lot of minimally worded questions.
“When I turn my circuit on, why doesn’t it work the way I expected?”

Maybe we should post something, that gives an example, of what works best, to get the answer, the member wants.

This type of post:
++++++++++++++++++++++

Suggestions for a successful post.

The Forum category:
If the category is obvious and clear cut, try to post in the appropriate forum section.
If the subject is difficult to place in an existing category, post in the closest you can.
Just do not post the same question in more than one category (“cross-post”) .
The gurus that answer most of the questions, read all of the posts and get annoyed
when they see the same question spread across many posts. The same question,
asked again, causes the answers to be split between the posts and difficult to research.

The Subject line:
Try to make the subject descriptive enough to help people decide to view your post.
Many posts carry the title, “help”, “code doesn’t work”, or “PIC16F876”.
This may get you an answer, but is useless for someone, searching for help, in the future.

Content:
Try to include a short background on the project and a background on you.
The answer gods like to see that you have invested some “sweat equity” into the project.
They put in many hours a day, helping people solve PICBASIC problems.
They do not do the groundwork for you. That is your job.
At least do enough of the work to get stumped by a NOT so obvious problem.
Search the forum, search the internet look for the answer on your own.

About your project:
Describe what you want your project to do.
List what data sheets you have tried to read.
List what manuals you have read, to find your answer.
Tell that you have searched the forum.
Post what doesn’t work.
Tell what you have already tried.
Post your code.
Post your schematic.

About you:
Tell what have you checked already.
Tell about your ability. PIC experience, electronics experience.
What level answer are you expecting.

++++++++++++++++++++++
....anyway you guys get the idea, a “how to” for newbies.....
-Adam-

[mackrackit]

Good idea, but I can see it now...

RTFHowTo

When I grade papers, along with the RED X on incorrect answers there is also a pg??? referring to the page where the correct answer can be found. The student is required to the answer the question correctly. Does not change the grade of the paper but will insure they know the answer for finals. In the meantime an intelligent dialog about the concept can take place.

So, I see nothing wrong with RTFM + pg#. Most of the times that I see a reply with RTFM there IS a reference to a page, section or something of the sort.

Why? Because RTFM is just an insult

Is this really an insult? I think the insult is being asked to give something to someone that feels they should not have to work to have what they want. Do you think that is an insult?

[garryp4]

My bad! When I read a data sheet for an A/D converter, this is always a listed spec for the device. Why would this chart not be included with the A/D section? So I did RTFM for the A/D section from start to finish but this tid bit of info was 135 pages later.

The point is I have read many data sheets for a wide variety of devices from many companies and all have thier own 'flavor'. To simply tell someone to RTFM defeats the purpose of the user forum as a method of sharing information. If I was to ask " please write my code and draw me a schematic and layout", then TAK (take a hike) would be a good response. I agree with MACKRACKIT that if you are willing to make a reply, that a hint or clue to a page or section in the data sheet is so much more bennefitial to the poster and future readers than a RTFM. I believe, after reading may posts, that members are looking for help, advice, a point in the right direction, etc., not a handout, and certainly not an insult.

While I did fail to get 135 pages futher into the data sheet, I did read every section that pertained to my project, including data form the electrical charateristics about clock speed vs. current usage, etc.

Oh, skimask, thanks for letting me know where to find this information. Your post was better that what I got from Microchip!

[skimask]

When I first started with PICs, nobody really pointed me to the 'Electrical Specifications' section. I found it, read thru a few, found a lot of stuff to be generic across all families, some are family specific, and very few are device specific.
Now you know...and there ya go...
Have fun...don't burn anything up!

[Pic_User]

How to get the most out of the forum. (Draft)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Suggestions for a successful first post.

The Forum category:
If the category is obvious and clear cut, try to post in the appropriate forum section.
If the subject is difficult to place in an existing category, post in the closest you can.
Just do not post the same question in more than one category (“cross-post”) .
The gurus that answer most of the questions, read all of the posts and get annoyed
when they see the same question spread across many posts. The same question,
asked again, causes the answers to be split between the posts and difficult to research.

The Subject line:
Try to make the subject descriptive enough to help people decide to view your post.
Many posts carry the title, “help”, “code doesn’t work”, or “PIC16F876”.
This may get you an answer, but is useless for someone, searching for help, in the future.

Content:
Try to include a short background on the project and a background on you.
The answer gods like to see that you have invested some “sweat equity” into the project.
They put in many hours a day, helping people solve PICBASIC problems.
They do not do the groundwork for you. That is your job.
At least do enough of the work to get stumped by a NOT so obvious problem.
Search the forum, search the internet look for the answer on your own.

About your project:
Describe what you want your project to do.
List what data sheets you have tried to read.
List what manuals you have read, to find your answer.
Tell that you have searched the forum.
Post what doesn’t work.
Tell what you have already tried.
Post your code. (use VB to put it in a “code box”)
Post your schematic.
List any books or sites you are using for reference.

About your tools:
Which BASIC editor.
Which MELabs compiler; PICBASIC Compiler (PBC) or PICBASIC Pro (PBP)
Which Assembler; Microchip's (MPASM), MELabs default (PM)
Which Programmer; PICkit2, ICD2, EPIC, copy of ________, etc.
Programming method; ZIF, In Circuit Serial Programming (ICSP), In Circuit Debugging (ICD), Boot-loading.
Development board, printed circuit (wiring) board (PCB), Solder-less bread board.
Oscilloscope available.
Time available.

About your PIC:
Which PIC.
Internal oscillator, crystal, resonator, external oscillator, speed
MCLR resistor, software disabled
Configuration Fuses (PIC Defines)
Pull-up resistors
Capacitors; Vdd to Vss, on crystal to ground.
What is done with the unused pins.

About you:
What to call you, we prefer your real first name.
Tell about your ability. PIC experience, electronics experience.
What level answer are you expecting.

How to do it:
Paste this code into the "Post New Thread" box and edit it by filling in the blank lines.

[B]What help I need:[/B]

[B]About my project:[/B]

[B]About my tools:[/B]

[B]About my PIC:[/B]

[B]About me:[/B]

++++++++++++++++++++++
Please help me “grow” or “chop” this list. What else do you want to know from the poster, besides; “Why doesn’t my project work.”
-Adam-

[malc-c]

maybe if there was a simple thread on how to read a datasheet might be better. It could be just the basiscs, such as setting ports to digital, analogue or a mixture, what the bits do what. My suggestion would be to keep it generic to families if PICs (such as the 12F family that default to analogue rather than digital as this often crops up)

I agree that telling someone to RTFM isn't a lot of help, but I also agree that if you go to deep with this sort of thread you'll end up re-writing the datasheet, and then it becomes a reference manual rather than a sheet !

[Acetronics2]

Hi, All

Thinking to the Basic question ...

My opinion is a special thread giving the appropriate links to find the solution of the so-called " Problem" ( 99% of time LOL ! ) , instead of SOLVING the problem is more than enough ...

Hi, Adam

Just a little humouristic question :

What do the beginners win, having correctly completed the reading of the "suggestions" post ??? ...

being serious ... such thing would frighten them more than help them ...

nobody wants to read anything today, ... just want to stay anonymous and get the "ready to go" solution ...

That's it ... we are old dinausors ...

Alain

[Meriachee]

We are far worse than old dinosaurs.

Having just returned from the Alaska cruise, I've just witnessed first hand that we are hell-bent on "sedentary entertainment". (we are here, entertain us)

Of the approximately 1900 "guests" on the boat, I wonder if anybody else noticed that the "navigation tv" showed the wind coming across the bow from the 2PM position from the time we left Vancouver till the time we returned and tied up at Canada Place. 7 days.

I couldn't help but think of the wind direction pic project. I thought that the folks who were involved with the wind direction thread would maybe get a smile out of that.....

Gary