So, what are people using for CHEAP ICSP programmers these days?

[TrueMetalGeek]

Hey all. I've been using a Kit149 programmer for years running Microburn software. One of them died and I'm still on my second one but it's getting worn and sometimes acts up.
Anyway I have ordered a few Pickit3 knock offs from Amazon which would work for a while then something happens to them. I don't know if the knock offs are very sensitive to being connected to my circuit at the same time but my old Kit149 usually just has a hickup and then works again after it resets but the PicKit 3 just dies.

Anyway I ordered a kit150 off of ebay. Cheap.
Man. It is using that horrible prolific usb to serial chip that Windows 10/11 hates. And even after I get a driver to work and see it at all, microburn doesn't connect to it. So that was junk.

So I thought before I searched and took a chance on something else maybe I'd ask you guys what is a good cheap programmer tool.

I see that Microchip uses pikit4 or something like that, but that thing isn't cheap and if it is sensitive and will fry easy like the pickit3's then I don't want that. But of course the pickit3 issues could be because they are knock offs.

Anyway. When I did get the pickit3 to work initially I did get it to work with Microcode studio with some setup info I found on the forums.
It just didn't last more than a few uses the few times I bought one. :-(

[Ioannis]

I use Pikprog+ by Elnec for many years (this model is not in production now and is based on parallel port!), Pickit 2 and Pickit3 (original by Microchip) and ICD3.

I can say that never had any issue, except a static discharge that killed a pin on the Elnec programmer and this was fixed in no time by the manufacturer.

Also recently used a clone of Pickit 2 with success.

For stand alone software I use this https://pickitplus.co.uk/Typesetter/index.php/Software which is more than GREAT! Evan Venn that made the stand alone IDE for Pickit2 and 3, is very helpful and solves any problems asap. He also sells his design Pickit 2 clone kits if it is enough for your needs.

So, I guess looking around costs more money at the end. Buy a good and trusted programmer that will save you time, frustration and money.

Ioannis

[mpgmike]

The price leader for quality would have to be the Snap Programmer from Microchip, $34.09 (USD). It cannot power the target, but other than that, it does everything the PICkit4 does. Oh, it requires LVP (Low Voltage Programming) CONFIG.

https://www.microchip.com/en-us/deve...-tool/PG164100

[tumbleweed]

I've used all the Microchip ones, and even a few pickit3 clones and never had an issue with any of them.
If you keep blowing up PK3's then it could be your setup/configuration (not using MCLR, setting RB6/RB7 as outputs, etc).

If you've been using the kit149/150 then you must be using some OLD chips, stuff from the 1990's/early 2000.
If that's the case you'll want to get a programmer that can do HV programming, which some of the pickit3 clones can't do and neither does the SNAP.

The SNAP and pickit4 will require you to install MPLABX to get the drivers, so that's a negative, plus you're pretty much limited to command-line operation with them (no programming app except for MPLABX)

From what you've described you've been using, I'd second a vote for the Pickitplus software with a decent pickit3 clone, although that might be getting harder and harder to come by these days.

[tumbleweed]

I like to support the folks at pickitplus, but if you're really strapped for cash there's a similar free version called pickitminus at http://kair.us/projects/pickitminus/
It's not as up to date as pickitplus, but for free it's hard to complain.

[TrueMetalGeek]

The PICKIT 3 was nice when it worked as it worked with the MPLAB and Microcode Studio when I added the command lines I found on the forums.
So I have been using 16F690's most exclusively. Data, Clock and VPP are all on port A. VPP is on an input only port and I most often used the port a0 and a1 as inputs where data and clock are but ya know, I wouldn't doubt that I left those to default outputs when I start a new project. So you think it could be as simple as the a0/a1 (data/clock) being latched down that fries the programmer?

I do most often power the PIC buy my circuit and so now that I think about it, after the first program when it starts it will have A0 and A1 as outputs (if I don't change it right away in my first program) and held low if I don't first set them as inputs or isolate them.
I also use the MCLR pin as an input rather than as MCLR. Would that be an issue? I wouldn't think so unless there is something I don't know with that.

I'd try another PICKIT 3 if there was a reason for the failures that I could remedy it in the future.
I also see that PICKIT 2 clones are closer to $20.

Oh yeah. I see that Adruino stuff is coming down in price but I am so used to PIC and I like building minimalistic boards to do various things with the small cheap $2 PIC's and I'd have to learn the C language better when i am used to PIC BASIC (was used to that since the Tandy 8000/VIC20 days)

I've used all the Microchip ones, and even a few pickit3 clones and never had an issue with any of them.
If you keep blowing up PK3's then it could be your setup/configuration (not using MCLR, setting RB6/RB7 as outputs, etc).

If you've been using the kit149/150 then you must be using some OLD chips, stuff from the 1990's/early 2000.
If that's the case you'll want to get a programmer that can do HV programming, which some of the pickit3 clones can't do and neither does the SNAP.

The SNAP and pickit4 will require you to install MPLABX to get the drivers, so that's a negative, plus you're pretty much limited to command-line operation with them (no programming app except for MPLABX)

From what you've described you've been using, I'd second a vote for the Pickitplus software with a decent pickit3 clone, although that might be getting harder and harder to come by these days.

[tumbleweed]

I do most often power the PIC buy my circuit and so now that I think about it, after the first program when it starts it will have A0 and A1 as outputs (if I don't change it right away in my first program) and held low if I don't first set them as inputs or isolate them.
I also use the MCLR pin as an input rather than as MCLR. Would that be an issue? I wouldn't think so unless there is something I don't know with that.

If you don't let the pickit control VDD then there are configurations that, once programmed, can prevent the PK from being able to put the part back into programming mode.
It would have to use the VDD-first method, and that method of entry is valid only if INTOSC and internal MCLR are not selected.

Also, make sure that there is nothing on the MCLR/VPP pin that would prevent the programmer from raising it to 12V.

[TrueMetalGeek]

There is one brain fart I have now realized.
I never did add a pull up on MCLR
Yet the programmer worked a while. Must have been luck maybe.
So Before I buy a new one i will add the MCLR pullup resistor and try to access the device again.

If it still doesn't work perhaps I will purchase one again and try to be more careful with it such as not allow the dat/clk to be outputs. I'm surprised that the device would be that sensitive knowing that those pins would be outputs by default.

I just ordered some new PIC's to try out that will give me a few more I/O pins and maybe I will have better luck.
And now that I am milling my own boards it will be a bit easier to make a dedicated ICSP header and whatnot and once I get a base board working that I like to be the basis for future products I can just produce the same working layout to begin a project with.

Also maybe someday I could learn to use DEBUG and not need to design my projects with an LCD so much for viewing my variables.

[mpgmike]

I had a project that lived in an electrically noisy environment. Prior to that I used 10k pull-ups on MCLR in addition to the internal WPU. It kept RESETting randomly. I swapped the 10k to a 4.7k and the random RESETs went away. That pull-up is pretty important. It not only serves as a pull-up to VDD, but also a pull-down to VDD to counter noise & spikes in the power supply. If MCLR goes low, it RESETs. If MCLR goes high (>VDD), it goes into Programming Mode. Both can cause issues.

[tumbleweed]

If it still doesn't work perhaps I will purchase one again and try to be more careful...

Are you sure you're blowing up the programmer and not just setting the chips in such a way that the programmer can no longer access them in circuit?

In addition to MCLR/VPP, do you have a connection from VDD of your board to the PK3?

[Ioannis]

I had a project that lived in an electrically noisy environment. Prior to that I used 10k pull-ups on MCLR in addition to the internal WPU. It kept RESETting randomly. I swapped the 10k to a 4.7k and the random RESETs went away. That pull-up is pretty important. It not only serves as a pull-up to VDD, but also a pull-down to VDD to counter noise & spikes in the power supply. If MCLR goes low, it RESETs. If MCLR goes high (>VDD), it goes into Programming Mode. Both can cause issues.

A cap from MCLR to ground is also necessary to kill the spikes.

But if the pin can be programmed as I/O then these problems are minimised.

Ioannis

[HenrikOlsson]

A cap from MCLR to ground is also necessary to kill the spikes.

I'd probably say that it depends. On the chip used...and the application...and the circumstances and...

I mean, for the MCLR part of the circuit the capacitor might help (or at least not make it worse if it's not too big) but for the ICSP part of the circuit the capacitor will slow down the risetime of the applied Vpp which may prevent the chip from entering programming mode.

Some designs I've seen use the typical resistor/capacitor circuit with the RC-junction connected to MCLR thru a small signal diode so that the ICSProgrammer doesn't "see" the capacitor. Personally, I've never used that and I generally don't put a cap on MCLR. I have boards that have been running in an industrial application (welding automation so quite noisy environment) for 10 years now (using 18F2431) with just a 10k pullup on MCLR-pin. Perhaps I'm lucky.

/Henrik.

[TrueMetalGeek]

A cap from MCLR to ground is also necessary to kill the spikes.

But if the pin can be programmed as I/O then these problems are minimised.

Ioannis

I've been using the KIT 149 since about the beginning of my PIC tinkering.
Within the MICROBURN software I have simply always turned off MCLRE so i can have it as an input.
Of course that may be different when using the PICKIT 3

I am still not exactly sure how to turn MCLRE off when I was using it in Microcode studio. I've seen some defines or configs or something posted in other's people's codes but I'm not sure what works

[TrueMetalGeek]

Well I did get it working again.
Slapped in a PIC and added thew VPP/MCLR pull up resistor.
Using the CLK/DAT for outputs was not an issue after all.

I think I was doing it wrong since the beginning (no pull up on the VPP line) and I just got lucky on some early uses and then it would not work.

[CuriousOne]

I got same issue.
Using PicKit 3 (Both clone and genuine, found zero difference in operation).
But got into trouble- got a tray of PIC18F45K80 for cheap, just to find out that PicKit3 standalone software does not support this MCU (Only PIC18F45K20 is supported).
So is there any kind of software upgrade, or need to get whole new programmer?

[CuriousOne]

This Pickit3plus software looks promising
but too bad they don't have demo/trial download option...

[tumbleweed]

There's pickitminus. It works with PK2 and PK3. http://www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=24700
It's not quite as up to date as pickit+, but it's free.

[CuriousOne]

Thanks, I'll try it

[HenrikOlsson]

MPLAB IPE is also free.
I'm using v5.20 with its command line tool (but it has a GUI) and a PICKit3. In the GUI I can connect to my PK3 and I can select the 45K80 as my target but I haven't tried programming one.

[Ioannis]

... just to find out that PicKit3 standalone software does not support this MCU ....

Which standalone? PickitPlus or other? If it is PickitPlus, then Evan is very helpful and may add this device for you.

Ioannis

[mpgmike]

As far as older programmers, the newer PIC offerings cannot be programmed with the older PICKit2/PICKit3 programmers. There is a cut-off. Microchip is currently only supporting PICKit4, ICD4, and Snap.

[CuriousOne]

Standalone I mean Pickit3 standalone software by microchip.
And as I know, there is no such software for PicKit 4.

[CuriousOne]

Just checked, PicKitMinus + PicKit3 works with 18F45K80 just fine!
Thanks again!