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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    I for one, am a guy that started with Basic and found it very difficult to jump over to C.

    Tried many times but seems too difficult...

    Especially the beast called MPLAB-X.

    Ioannis

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    I work with Visual Studio's Visual "Basic", which is a blend of Basic & C. That is helping me learn XC8.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    I for one will always use the Best compiler I have found in the last 20+ years or so, PBP3.1.1. I have written MANY projects for the company I worked for as well as MANY of my own projects. I was brought up on BASIC and It seems so straight forward that I don't understand why any body wound switch. I'm 66 years old and the new kids on the block seem to get off on the ARDUINO rage thinking they can do anything with a PRE-MADE boards and some LIBRARIES that someone else wrote for them with minimum documentation. Well that's NOT for me.. I just retired (2 weeks ago) from a prominent 2nd tier supplier of automotive electronics after 39 years of being a Test Engineer and have about 75+ different durability pcb's running code written in from PBP2.6 to PBP3.1.1 as I speak. Some are for Keyless entry and some are for Braking and others are for keyless ignition, From RF decoding to RF encoding. I only HOPE that MELABS keep's on supporting the Language as there compiler seems to be the best I have found..
    I for one will keep supporting them until there out of business and beyond. Hopefully NOT soon....
    Last edited by Dave; - 15th September 2018 at 22:27.
    Dave Purola,
    N8NTA
    EN82fn

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    it would be nice to see an xc8 support group established here on this forum
    Members seem keen on the "C" language path based on the number of questions and responses regarding available books for beginners.
    I too am progressing down this path and note there is a distinct shortage of "friendly" user groups or forums.

    I second Richard's comment regarding the establishment of an XC8 support group here on this forum.

    Cheers
    Barry
    VK2XBP

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    In the current (July/August 2018) edition of Nuts & Volts Magazine is an article titled, "Go PICBASIC PRO with C" (pg 78). It is a simple exposure to some of the familiar PBP methods done in C.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Quote Originally Posted by Ioannis View Post
    I agree, the specs are no near anything in PIC or even Arduino world.

    But, will you trust such a board for a professional application? I know you are doing it for hobby, but others will be more skeptic using it.

    Still, very tempting!

    Ioannis
    I respect your views, but whilst watching this video the guy did a "whats inside" to discover that the product is based around a Pi



    Companies website http://vinylvideo.supersense.com/

    So the developers must have confidence in using such devices in a commercial environment.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Never said anything about the hardware, which by the way is very impressive, having WiFi, Bluetooth etc on a low price board. A really dream board, either Pi or other flavors.

    My concern is about the libraries that someone, somewhere made with usually no documentation.

    Ioannis

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    I also don't want to decipher someone elses code with out documentation. That's a waste the time? It seems to get you off track of the REAL project at hand. I have found that most Libraries aimed for the Arduino system lack documentation. Most designers of the Arduino systems are just PLUG and PLAY type people. If it doesn't work they are on to a new project or modifying someone else's code to make it work for there purpose and NOT documenting it....

    IMHO,
    Dave Purola,
    N8NTA
    EN82fn

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Well, I have to say that while I was learning (and still learning) to code in python 3, I have found all the library in use in my code all well and professionally documented. I think python is the computer programming language better documented today.

    Alberto

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    I also don't want to decipher someone elses code with out documentation. That's a waste the time? It seems to get you off track of the REAL project at hand. I have found that most Libraries aimed for the Arduino system lack documentation. Most designers of the Arduino systems are just PLUG and PLAY type people. If it doesn't work they are on to a new project or modifying someone else's code to make it work for there purpose and NOT documenting it....

    IMHO,
    I agree with this.

    People with less electronic and/or programming knowledge are using Arduino with ready to use sample codes.
    And if there is something wrong, they ask "you" to solve the issue;
    So at the end, it gets back to "you" as a headache anyway.
    "If the Earth were a single state, Istanbul would be its capital." Napoleon Bonaparte

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    It's strange how the Arduino platform gets lumped in with the raspberry pi and other single board computers, but the two are so far apart. Unlike the Pi and other single board computers, the arduino doesn't run an operating system (typically linux based). The arduino platform is similar to PICs in that you upload compiled code in a HEX format.

    I've only recently dabbled with Arduino's for the reasons already stated, but all the examples I found and used were well documented, either on the website I found them on, or in the comments within the scripts. I was able to either extract parts of the code I needed for my project, or use the complete code as a routine within the code. No different than taking a sample code from the code section on this forum and modifying it to suit my own needs.

    Agreed nothing ever stays still, and maybe PBP has had its day. From what I gather, for commercially robust PIC based projects the preferred method of coding is either some form of C or direct assembly code. Over the years I've been associated with many a forum on various hobbies, and have seen them go the same way as this forum, from being so active that its hard to keep up with posts in an evening, to hardly a single post in two or three weeks, all because the company behind the products never kept up with progress. Years back I was approached by a fellow forum member who wanted to give something back by offering a free library for PBP, and between us (he coded and I tested) developed the DHT22 / AM2002 library for that range of sensors. But surely, with PBP being a commercial product, these sort of things should be part of its development and not left to its users to develop ?

    Given the above, I can see why a lot of people have move to a different platform or compiler. Which in some way is sad as I used to love the knowledge that I could get a quick reply to an issue from a handful of experienced and regular users.

    One of the comments someone mentioned was that these days people seem to want to get something running without understanding what goes on under the hood so to speak. Is that a bad thing? When I coded in BPB I was interested to learn how the code worked, the logic behind it, but I have no real interested in what goes on inside the PIC, with stuff being moved in registers or whatever. The part I often struggled with was when the likes of Darrel, and Henrik helped out and provided code for a project was when there was no alternative but to add in some assembly code inside the PBP code. I appreciate and bow down to their knowledge, but it was no point them trying to explain the ASM code as it never sank in, and when I asked why they had to use ASM it was either because there was no function in PBP to do what was required, or because it was quicker than the equivalent PBP command for some reason.

    I never migrated to PBP3 as I couldn't justify the cost for the small amount of hobby projects I developed, so a lot of my comments and experience relate to 2.60c. Also as a lot of my projects could be developed around PICs that my EasyPIC5 supports rather than the newer PICs I couldn't see the need to upgrade. I'll still come back here on a regular basis, just to see how things are, but I sadly can't see myself using PICs and PBP for my next project.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    A somewhat poor analogy but relevant none the less: An OCR (optical character recognition) system was developed to transfer data however was discontinued as it was found a skilled typist could enter the data more reliably that being OCR errors proved quite difficult to spot.
    Last edited by Normnet; - 21st September 2018 at 05:02.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    I think that you are all missing one very important point.

    Arduino and the Pi, have brought into our world a whole demographic of new users, ranging from Chefs to gardeners including artists and clothing designers.

    the ease of use and the fact that they can reuse code without having to learn has opened the door

    I see the downside, but I also think its great that a 60 year old lady gardener not too far from me, has built her own temp and humidity monitor for her green house. Never wrote a line of code, but built it from a Pi and a then looked at Arduino.

    we never saw that from PIC basic of any flavor.

    its a good thing to bring in new people from new areas. It reflects the real world fact that electronics now penetrates all areas of our lives. It is no longer a niche area for geeks like me , hobbyists and seasoned professionals ( like me also). personally I think its great that we are seeing these new entrants, even though they are learning the ropes Backwards. By that I mean they buy a Pi, they load someone elses code and make a project, then it sparks their interest and they learn a little electronics.

    I dont care how they learn, just so long as it sparks interest and they begin on the road to becoming an electronics hobbyist.

    Just think about it, she is 60 years old ( maybe older) she knows no electronics, but she is now one of us !
    Lester - Forum Administrator
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Arduino and the Pi, have brought into our world a whole demographic of new users
    not to mention a vast array of cheap "Arduino compatible" sensors/modules in a breadboard friendly form, making it easy to hook up something up
    to test our wildest ideas with no immediate need for a dedicated pcb and better still there is a easy to tap knowledge base for all of them.

    no matter what platform you choose the pi/Arduino movement is a boon for all electronics enthusiasts
    This is more entertaining than Free to Air TV

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    That vinyl video player is a project by two people that became the companies’ only product.

    You would, and should be laughed at for suggesting a design based on Arduino or Pi in a professional EE environment.
    For any company producing anything in military/mining/medical, you’d be fired the day you suggested it.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Quote Originally Posted by Art View Post

    You would, and should be laughed at for suggesting a design based on Arduino or Pi in a professional EE environment.
    For any company producing anything in military/mining/medical, you’d be fired the day you suggested it.
    To be honest, I'm guessing that may also be true if you suggested using a form of Basic in such industries....

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    There are the dinosaur languages (COBAL) that still have a place in the military, and there are fairly new languages that I never heard of. I think if you are the sole developer, as long as it works, that's what counts to your client. Charles Leo (ME Labs) is developing some rather high-end automotive racing products based around the PBP programming language. If you are working with a team of developers, the programming language becomes a group decision.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    I wouldnít say that, but there would be no reason to. I was talking about hardware specifically... relating to the Techmoan vid.
    You can buy an Arduino board with guaranteed ESD handling from supply to delivery, RoHS compliance, and ISO9000 supplier,
    but youíd still have a board arrive at the production house with no real guarantee of IPC assembly or JSPEC,
    but worse, youíd have a board the company didnít produce that couldnít have a serial number associated with rework history,
    could not apply any MILSTD because testing canít influence production of the board, which is the kind of feedback loop the standard is all about,
    and quality assurance canít correct anything, or even query or improve any part of the boardís production.

    Not to mention unneeded header connectors or flying leads, or whatever extra point to point connections needed.

    For the software side, for Arduino, thereís no point in using Arduino as a platform, unless you are using itís libraries, which is a different aspect.
    If you were writing a so called scetch from scratch, including libraries, then pre-built hardware would be the only reason to use Arduino platform.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Quote Originally Posted by Art View Post

    For the software side, for Arduino, there’s no point in using Arduino as a platform, unless you are using it’s libraries, which is a different aspect.
    If you were writing a so called scetch from scratch, including libraries, then pre-built hardware would be the only reason to use Arduino platform.
    Art, isn't that the same as using the include files in PBPro ? - I can't see any difference in using a TFT library file with an arduino to using DT's interrupt include file when working with PBP. (assuming I had the knowledge to do so) why would I want to write my own interrupt routine when some kind person has already done so.

    Pre-built hardware isn't the only reason to use the arduino platform... You could quite easily design, build and program a custom project with its own PCB in the same way as you can for a PIC without the need to use off the shelf boards - It's just not seen as robust enough or of a standard accepted by industry. For me, as mentioned above, it's the fact that PBP has stood still when trying to keep up with modern hardware. Just look at the PBP wish list thread, it's not just modern hardware such as touch screen TFT's etc, Ethernet was requested years ago...but (AFAIK) there is no direct commands to handle networking within PBP. I think this is the main reason hobbyist's made the switch causing this forum has become an archive for reference rather than an active support platform as numbers decreased.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Quote Originally Posted by Scampy View Post
    Art, isn't that the same as using the include files in PBPro ? - I can't see any difference in using a TFT library file with an arduino to using DT's interrupt include file when working with PBP. (assuming I had the knowledge to do so) why would I want to write my own interrupt routine when some kind person has already done so...
    While Arduino has many user contributed libraries and a project can be up and running quicker with them unlike DT's they are not of such that they can be relied on for a product.

    Norm

  21. #61
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    Quote Originally Posted by Scampy View Post
    Just look at the PBP wish list thread, it's not just modern hardware such as touch screen TFT's etc...
    I just submitted an article to Nuts And Volts covering the Nextion TFT Display. If you want to add a touch screen, the Nextion has made it rather simple.

  22. #62
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    It really help to design an HMI fast. I am looking forward to see the 10" capacitive display because the resistive film makes them a bit blurry.

    If the project does not need a touch interface, one can alwayes get rid of the adhesive resistive layer.

    Ioannis

  23. #63
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    Default Re: Goodbye

    I said that
    Code:
    IF
    you were writing your program from scratch (without any Arduino libraries)
    THEN
    The prebuilt hardware would be the only reason to use the Arduino platform
    ENDIF
    and that’s just because all that would be left the Arduino IDE is doing is the chip config & C make file behind the scenes,
    and using the Arduino boot loader to program the chip,
    but any decent mcu platform will come with the same old sample programs for blinken LEDs, etc. that you can write something else straight into,
    and most of us are at least already going to have an ICSP programmer of some sort that can do a lot of chips anyway.
    Last edited by Art; - 13th November 2018 at 15:03.

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