Heated Debate... Features and Updates and Things...

[OXIMBIT]

I have to say after reading these posts for some time now I can only conclude you all must have more time than money.

To think how much effort you put into making a Pbpro do basic stuff like > 16 bit maths and data handling amazes me.

Tim

[mister_e]

Mike you can still save few bytes if you remove the FOR NEXT and replace it with a variable increment and a IF THEN to check the value... i guess 4-6 bytes will be saved.

Depending of your sourounded code, you can also use some PBP macro too.

Nothing is mpossible... but only with a few lines snip...

I have to say after reading these posts for some time now I can only conclude you all must have more time than money.

That's one of the most dangerous thing i never see here. I think that

I have to say after reading these posts for some time now I can only conclude you all have a great knowledge because you can built and share all your stuff yourself with a minimum of code space and you don't need anything else to do it. Meant Math-processor, other compiler and such. Nice job guys!!!

is more appopriate .. just an idea

[mytekcontrols]

Mike you can still save few bytes if you remove the FOR NEXT and replace it with a variable increment and a IF THEN to check the value... i guess 4-6 bytes will be saved.

Mister_E thanks for the info, unfortunately I decided to scrap the whole approach for what I was doing and implemented it in an entirely different way, which saved gobs of bytes (counting changes in surrounding code) and made my life much easier (this is always appreciatted). When I get it into a more final form I'll post it.

Thanks again,

P.S. I like your version of what that guy probably really meant to say :-)

[OXIMBIT]

In case you did not realise I was being sarcastic. For a company to sell this product for so much that offers so little when there are cheaper products that do more for less I think is ......... But If your prepared to pay the price and jump through all those loops trying to implement features that should have been there in the first place is up to you, it's your money.

By "more time than money" means your you prepared to spend all that extra time doing workarounds than spending the money on better product.

[Darrel Taylor]

<img src="http://www.pbpgroup.com/files/dejected.gif"><br>Added 7/2/05: See, I just knew this was going to happen.

[Acetronics2]

By "more time than money" means your you prepared to spend all that extra time doing workarounds than spending the money on better product.[/QUOTE]

The only probem is to sell ...

What ??? that's not a problem ... shiny adds and whatever the "thing" makes : that's in the pocket.

Nowadays, selling a sparkling project is easier than selling a well engineered product ...

doesn't make me laugh at all ...in the end

Alain

[Melanie]

In case you did not realise I was being sarcastic. For a company to sell this product for so much that offers so little when there are cheaper products that do more for less I think is ......... But If your prepared to pay the price and jump through all those loops trying to implement features that should have been there in the first place is up to you, it's your money.

By "more time than money" means your you prepared to spend all that extra time doing workarounds than spending the money on better product.

Firstly, it's only a problem for those who don't know how (and here you have a simple choice, learn, or move-on elsewhere). Secondly, once you have those routines, you don't need to reinvent the wheel the next time you need them. But most importantly - and this counts for more than price-point or frills and features, is that the MeLabs offering is a well designed, RELIABLE, STABLE and MATURE product. You can design your project safe in the knowledge that it will do what you intend and expect it to do. Some competitors products go through more bug fixes and revisions in a single year than the MeLabs product has in it's entire history - that's kinda worrying and not something to be proud of. On an occasion when I used a different compiler, my MD refused to release the product until I had rewritten the software excluding it. His argument centred on RELIABILITY and TRUST which was worth far more than any other adjective you could apply in favour of the competitors compiler.

If I was a hobbyist, especially one with limited skills, I'd have a completely different set of criteria. I would want a product that has every bell and whistle built-in, and costs next to nothing. Reliability would not even enter into my thoughts. There are a lot of products out there that meet that criteria. More "time and money" as you mention is then spent chasing your tail wondering if the reason that your project doesn't work as expected is down to your code, or is it due to a bug in that all singing and dancing compiler?

[Acetronics2]

Hi, Mel

I'm a pure Hobbyist ... who flies models.

You will surely agree reliability is the first thing I'm waiting from PBP ...

I can say, I never had bad surprises ( exept my own beginner's errors ...) with PBP.
It's really a great tool ... and I can enhance or modify it myself !!!

But I agree it needs a little (really little ! ) learning time, that's a good thing nowadays to learn, instead of stupidly paste already done work ...

No other compiler offers that ...

Alain

[bot402]

When you have a product that hasn't actually changed in 5 years its easy to make it stable, especially if it doesn't actually do a great deal in the first place, and even then what it does is bloated, outdated, and inefficient. But where would we be if everything was like that. We'd still be driving Model T fords, and forget Television, the Internet and all the other offerings that have had to briefly go through the "not so stable" stage.

I'm just glad that everyone doesn't have that blinkered approach to things, or progress would come to a grinding halt!!!!!

[Melanie]

Well, in over a thousand posts helping folks both here and when I was on the email forum, I've yet to write a single word of complaint about that bloated, inefficient, outdated product. Which I may add, contributes to consistantly give me a bigger pay-check than the Managing Director of the company I work for and allowed me to pay-off a $500k mortgage in under 3 years. If people don't like the product so much, why are they here on this forum - shouldn't they be on a competitors site? Good example of yours though... ol' Henry earned damn good money out of that Model-T (though I wouldn't give you anything for his current offerings!).

"offerings that have had to briefly go through the "not so stable" stage"

When your designs feed factory production lines making close to half a million units annually, products giving "not so stable" results are just not an option. When those goods ship out the door, it's a one-way journey and we NEVER want them to come back. To even consider "not so stable" has got to be the crazyest thing I've read yet! How many things would you tollerate around your home or workplace that were "not-so-stable" (apart from your chosen compiler)? Your car?, perhaps the plane you next fly in? The air conditioner? Your shower water temperature? The building elevator perhaps? When you complained, what if you got an answer "Well, we used an unstable software tool to build your product, so that's just tough, you'll have to suffer it". Sure you would! You'd be the first in the queue asking for a refund.

[OXIMBIT]

Some observations:-

I have never advocated bells and whistles, it was after seeing people post how to work with > 16 vars and some form of basic data handling. When I used Pbpro many years ago, this was what I wanted and like your doing now I had workarounds. But I got fed up with doing it. Bigger variables eat code space but inevitably some times I have to use them. Luckily I don't have to do it my self now. Better data handling is a must, Most people here will stick a Eeprom on so they can have better lookup tables, unless I have massive tables I fit them all in the pic, it's easy.

As the last post said if every software company froze there development when it was 100% stable we would not even have got to Ada or one of the really early OS's. Product development is a part of life, unfortunately moving forward entails problems. Look at the Melabs site you will see that after years of standing still with a basic compiler there still coming across problems.

Problems always get fixed and you can do what a lot of people do and stick with the version that works for you then until you consider the new version has been around long enough to make you happy or there is a feature you have to have.

What is basically being said is Melabs is not capable after all these years of adding a few basic features with out bringing the lot crashing down around your ankles. They could have added 32 vars and tested it for 2 years but have decided to milk this product for all it's worth.

This is all my own personal opinion and as I always say if you happy with what you've got then stick with it. If not kick up a fuss or go elsewhere. Sitting around trying to make workarounds seems not to make sense, throw a few arrows, kick up a stink it will in the end make a better compiler.

What I don't think works is when there is constructive criticism (however sarcastic) its nice to slam them down. Take it on the chin like a man (or a woman) and be constructive in return.

[Dwayne]

Hello Alain,

Alain:

I'm a pure Hobbyist ... who flies models.

You will surely agree reliability is the first thing I'm waiting from PBP ...

I can say, I never had bad surprises ( exept my own beginner's errors ...) with PBP.
It's really a great tool ... and I can enhance or modify it myself !!!

But I agree it needs a little (really little ! ) learning time, that's a good thing nowadays to learn, instead of stupidly paste already done work ...

No other compiler offers that ...

I used to fly models for 20 some years. Was on a show team that opened up the airshows here in Wichita. Flew competition in Pattern flying. I am also a GA pilot and a UL Pilot. My favorite engine was a Rossi 40 or a YS 45. 2HP for a .40 engine... and wow did they scream! Used a Rossi 60 for ducted fan model. But 12 ounces of fuel would go in 5 min with the .40!


I have found PBP 100 percent reliable. Tough, small code, and easy to use. Every once In a while, I will get stumped. But it is usually my fault. Just like all compilers, you have to use them to know them. And when I get stumped, it is usually because I have not used that feature yet, or tried to shortcut by not looking in the manual...<g>

Dwayne

[bot402]

Small Code!!!!!!

You've obviously never used another language.

[OXIMBIT]

Sorry about this look away if your sensitive
As I know a lot about the way Pbpro works and it's weakness I decided to write a little test code to show the differences between my compiler and Pbpro

Below is a little bit of code and here are the statistics

Pbpro
16f877 1068 words vars 25
18f452 1798 bytes Vars 27

Another basic compiler
same code
16f877 653 words Vars 11
18f452 920 bytes Vars 8

Using the better data handling by changing "this is a long message" to CStr my_message and adding
my_message: CData "this is a long message"

16f877 399 words Vars 11
18f452 694 bytes Vars 9

Now turn the optimizer to level 6

No cdata
16f877 593 words Vars 11
18f452 848 bytes Vars 8

With Cdata
16f877 339 words Vars 11
18f452 622 bytes Vars 9

So just to recap best against best

Pbpro
16f877 1068 words vars 25
18f452 1798 bytes Vars 27

The other compiler
16f877 339 words Vars 11
18f452 622 bytes Vars 9

Like I said if your happy with your compiler stick with it.

 
    bit1 var Bit
    Bit2 var Bit
    bit3 var Bit
        
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then 
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable1
    EndIf
    lcdout "this is a long message"

lable1:    
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then 
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable2
    EndIf
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable2: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable3
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable3:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable4
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable4: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable5
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable5:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable6
    EndIf   
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable6: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable7
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable7:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable8
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable8: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable9
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable9:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable10
    EndIf  
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable10: 
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable11
    EndIf    
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable11:     
    If bit1 = Bit2 Then
        bit3 = 1    
        GoTo lable12
    EndIf   
    lcdout "this is a long message"
lable12:

[Dwayne]

Hello Bot,

Bot

Small Code!!!!!!

You've obviously never used another language.

<chuckle> You know what assume means don't you???

I programmed Philip Micrchips for many years. Assembly. Pure. Using UV light for 20 min on a 80C series MCU so that you hopefully erased the thing... else you couldn't reprogram it...had to re-erase it for another 20 mins.

I have tried other compilers...One thing you may have forgotten... Each compiler has its own way of optimizing code. One compiler may optimize a certain bit of code better than another... and vise versa...

But! you are correct...If the compiler suits you... use it!... and PBP is extremely reliable and bullet proof... I want 100 percent reliablity and small code. Not 99 percent reliability and a phone call from someone saying its not working correctly.

Dwayne

[mytekcontrols]

Wow! This place sure changed over night.

I think everyone makes great points from their own particular perspective. And bottomline as already stated, feel free to use what ever compiler or tools that suit you best. I also realize that it is a fundamental aspect of human nature to: resist change, hate starting over, or leave something behind. But sometimes you gotta do it, especially when the change will greatly ease your burden. However, constantly changing the tools you work with in order to have the latest, greatest thing out there, may be good for retailers, but a lot of times only results in lost productivity for the individual or company.

I remember this machinist guy I worked with several years ago who had the most awesome, gigantic, cadillac of tool boxes stuffed with every tool imaginable. No matter how many tools he had, he would always be the first guy standing outside when the Snap-on truck arrived, drooling over what other new tool he could buy. There was also this other machinist who worked at the same place, who had a tool chest with only a handfull of drawers, filled with a carefully selected assortment of what were obviously well used tools. I think you know where I am going with this story. Anyway, between these two different machinists, the one with the small assortment of tools, was also the one that could not only out produce the other individual, but also produced the highest quality products. Not to say this is always the case, and not that the opposite scenario most likely exists. But sometimes people really do get caught up in their tools, instead of what they're trying to build. I think Melanie has made a similar point, not only here, but in other forums as well.

Final point: We probably all still use hammers and manual screwdrivers, even though there are more advanced powered versions to be had (of which we might own as well, and use as well).

On a lighter note, I invite you all to see something very cool that is evolving over in this forum Embedded Strings in Your Code Space
This is really what this forum should be about. Making the best of what you have, and working together to make it even better.

[Dwayne]

Hello Michael,,

Michael

On a lighter note, I invite you all to see something very cool that is evolving over in this forum Embedded Strings in Your Code Space
This is really what this forum should be about. Making the best of what you have, and working together to make it even better.

This subject has already been discussed ... many times over...<chuckle>... Shows we are light days behind of the other Threads??? 8=}

Do some searches Michael... you would be amazed on the different threads that give tremendous help for all.

Another good thread, was RTC thread and its programming.... Excellent Thread on RTC. Melanie did a superb job with a "timer" too. Just as a fun project... It has much info that everyone can use...


Dwayne

[mytekcontrols]

Do some searches Michael... you would be amazed on the different threads that give tremendous help for all.

I have been, and you are absolutely correct. There is a tremendous amount of support, creativity, and lots of awesome code examples being offered on a daily basis. People like Melanie, Darrel, Bruce, Ingar, Mister_E, and yourself (just to name a few) go out of there way to help out, and do so without making the newbie feel inadaquate.

Thank you all,

[bot402]

The thread link for embedded strings actually shows the lacking within the compiler as most others do this as standard when the PICmicro's architecture allows.

Also, you talk of support. When was the last time any representative from melabs posted on the forum to answer any questions?

You are all being duped into doing everything for youreselves and melabs are simply sitting on the sideline. This is what you expect if you are using a free tool, but not one that is as expensive as the PBP.

[Acetronics2]

Hi, Bot

Just a question ... what are you still doing here losing your precious time ???

don't get a headache for writing us the answer ...

Alain

[mister_e]

Let's go for a second round...

I appreciate every comments on this thread. I wasn't expecting to start a conversation like that. That's funny and make some people thinking about some user attitude.

I mean, if you're on this forum, you should have Melabs compiler right? Thus what is the purpose to complaint about something you use if it's not only to make yourself feel better 'cause you think that other compiler is 'the best one' or 'the one to use'.

Kinda kid conversation : "My father is stronger than yours"

AND MORE, if you use only or mostely other compiler, what the hell are you doing here??? I guess it's only to get better/faster solutions to do some copy/paste/translate operation.

I remind to see, at least, one user that vote "trawling idea" on what compiler do you use poll. Interesting to see that's probably one of those who say, in his word, that we're all stupid/moron to still use PBP and or build our own math routines.

Be honnest!!! Here, you have great support, user knowledge, code example on various see most specific application.

Is my competitors call me to give me bad comment on what i do even if they do more and faster than me?? If so, the original "you must all have more time than money" stuff should be consider by those who complaint for their specific reason.

When was the last time any representative from melabs posted on the forum to answer any questions?

I agree but, many user here contact directly Mr Charles Leo and post results here. Charles is really awesome and answer really quickly if you need something. Even if you find a bug(really not often on PBP) and don't know why, the fix is done the same day... see within the same hour.

Sentence of the day : Where some gives more, other give less.

Think what you want

Yeah i use many compiler PCHW, PBP, Proton and i'd test many other. One is my favorite...PBP. WHY? Because when i write a code, small or big, on a new PIC or old, if i have some compilation error or odd results, i'm sure it's my fault and not because there's something that miss in XYZ file or the update has not been released or will be the the next week/month.

But i agree that some competition offer a really great, attractive package with a really interesting command set and more with a really interesting Price/Package content ratio.

That's a truth. Nothing to complaint about it.

One day, if Melabs do nothing else, don't add some new command to fit to newest PIC, i agree that some 'green' or 'future' user could me more interested about competition one. That's a truth too.

Like many old PBP user had built, or are able to build their own routine(GLCD, KEYPAD....) and place several hours on it, what will be the deal to move to another?

Easier to use? Faster developpement time? Depending who is back to the keyboard it can be true... well i guess.

[Melanie]

bot42:

Whilst string handling is limited within the PICBasic product, a short time searching on this forum will reveal a dozen different ways of manipulating strings. If you pruchased the MeLabs product, you did so in the knowledge of what it was and wasn't capable of doing. If subsequently you now need to manipulate strings, then this forum has shown you how, making you a happy bunny in that you don't have to spend money in buying a competitors product.

This forum is not run or owned by MeLabs. It is a "self-help" forum. That means it is the membership that helps each other. Since practically all of the questions are "How do I do this or that?" (which is a user or applications issue and not something a manufacturer would reply on) rather than "Your product is broke" which is not something that really applies here in the same way as it does with some competitors offerings. MeLabs will always reply to you personally by email if you care to contact them should you have a "broken product" issue. They have mentioned in the past (again if you care to do a search) that it is not their policy to tell people what they might or might-not be developing. The great majority of commercial enterprises follow the same policy.

Nobody is being duped. You KNOW UP-FRONT what you are buying. The specifications and features are CRYSTAL CLEAR, you can even look at the manual on-line, and play with it at compilespot.com. The product works just as advertised. If there is any part of the MeLabs product that does not work as described, then be constructive and let's hear it, because that's something every single user of the MeLabs products (including me) want's to be alterted about. But don't moan that your car hasn't got Air-Con AFTER you've bought it. If they decide to bring out an upgrade kit in the future, then that's a bonus. If they don't, and you really need that Air-Con, then I'm sure you'll chose a diffent manufacturer next time around.

[Demon]

I can't believe it. I never thought I'd ever see a representative of one product come onto a forum dedicated to another product and start bashing.

"I have to say after reading these posts for some time now I can only conclude you all must have more time than money. - OXIMBIT"

"For a company to sell this product for so much that offers so little when there are cheaper products that do more for less I think is ......... - OXIMBIT "

"By "more time than money" means your you prepared to spend all that extra time doing workarounds than spending the money on better product. - OXIMBIT"

"As I know a lot about the way Pbpro works and it's weakness I decided to write a little test code to show the differences between my compiler and Pbpro. - OXIMBIT"

I've worked in businesses for over 20 years now, and I have NEVER seen someone stoop low enough to resort to these most unprofessional tactics.

RULE #1 of business etiquette: NEVER put down the competition, it only makes you appear weaker by resorting to childish behavior.

I have no idea what compiler you have, I don't care if it washes the dishes and serves me beer while it writes my code for me. I will NEVER buy anything from a person like you, EVER. You can also be sure that any business contact that asks for a recommendation in MCUs will be sent your quotes above, as well as what I think of PBP Pro.

"As the last post said if every software company froze there development when it was 100% stable we would not even have got to Ada or one of the really early OS's."

So, where is ADA today?

In business, which you obviously know NOTHING about, stability is the cornerstone to continued business. Banks, credit cards, airline companies, hospitals, the list goes on, CANNOT afford to have a compiler that may or may not work as advertised.

Yes, R&D is important, BUT NEVER AT THE CLIENT'S EXPENSE! Develop your compiler properly, get rid of the tons of bugs and come back once you've done your homework properly. All software has bugs, that is a fact of life. But when someone peddles a compiler by putting down the competition, try approaching any large corporation with this marketting strategy and see how far you'll get. Most likely a swift kick where you need it...

PBP is NOT perfect, but when nearly ALL of the reported bugs are in the user's camp, that is a quality product. Read Mister E's reply, they gurus here have direct access to the power's that be. They get QUICK action on the few bugs they report; it doesn't get much better than that.

As for the lack of appearance from 'official' reps, why should they waste their time here? The gurus filter all the junk requests from those that don't read the darn manual (shut up Mr E. :P I didn't see that spec ok?). They also help out all those that misinterpret the manual, that happens, no big deal. They also go out of their way to help those that want to maximize performance and make PBP do things it was not designed to do. All that triage leaves the power's that be time to address the real issues.

If you are a power that be for another product, what are you doing on this forum? Why are you spending your time improving your product? Why aren't you researching even yet MORE ways to skin a cat? Is your compiler already perfect?

And now the important question: what is your compiler? WAIT! Don'T say it here, that might break a 'anti-bashing' rule against other products, so send it by PM or email.

Robert

[Demon]

Then I wish that BOT204's userID be deleted. He's posted a total of 5 times, never asked for help, never offerred help and does nothing but put down PBP.

While you're at it, the same applies to that other clown.

Robert

[bot402]

How dare you try to curb my freedom of speech!

My opinions are as valid as yours, regardless whether you like it or not.

I simply wished to point out that a blinkered approach to anything is dangerous, and your biggoted response has proven that without a shadow of a doubt.

I wasn't aware that I had to ask for help, or offer help to use this FREE!!!!!!! forum.

[Demon]

A 'guru' recommended to Proton as a very promising new compiler. I haven't really posted anything on their forums, but I have read a lot. I'm really interested on the product, it looks real good.

There's one thing that I find really strange though. I read a lot of posts by a 'Tim' on the Proton forums, someone whom I've eventually found out his full name. I look at the userid Oximbit, and I can't help but 'see' something in there, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Remember pig latin when you interchange letters around? Well, when you unpiglatinize Oximbit, you get a really surprising result.

If I was a power that was on the Proton project, the 1st thing I would do is flush one beta-tester, then I'd delete a Userid, and I'd compare the IP address of that userid with any other in the forum databases.

Totally disgusting behavior. I must say I have a new perspective on Product X and how the TEAM functions. A little bit of housecleaning would go a long way in restoring the integrity of Product X.

Robert

[Demon]

-----------------------------------------------------
How dare you try to curb my freedom of speech!

My opinions are as valid as yours, regardless whether you like it or not.

I simply wished to point out that a blinkered approach to anything is dangerous, and your biggoted response has proven that without a shadow of a doubt.

I wasn't aware that I had to ask for help, or offer help to use this FREE!!!!!!! forum.
-----------------------------------------------------


This isn't a chat forum, nor is it a public forum. It being FREE has nothing to do with your rights, which by the way, you have NONE except one. You have the right to observe the rules and guidelines stipulated when you registered.

Self-help forums work on a simple concept, people helping each other. If a user has absolutely nothing to contribute, then he's wasting disk space. A contribution does not have to be information, it can also be a question, which in turn generates valuable information in the replies.

"Freedom of speech", give me a break...

Robert
:lol:

[Demon]

"Take it on the chin like a man. - OXIMBIT"

I hope you can take it as much as you love to dish it out. I'm really looking forward to that private message about exactly what compiler is 'yours'.

I'm also quite anxious to see what happens when the forum administrators will start comparing IP addresses on userids. You do understand that these forums log this information right?

Robert

[Demon]

"As the last post said if every software company froze there development when it was 100% stable. - OXIMBIT"

Then we'd have nothing but companies as successful as IBM has been with their series of mainframe platforms. Sure, they had bugs, but their platform survives even today. Yes, they evolved them over the years, but they didn't do that overnight, each version lasting years if not decades. Did it have as many features as VAX or the other competition? Nope, probably not, but who cares?

It was built like a rock and that's why IBM platforms have dominated in the big businesses for so many years; dependability, reliability. None of the big businesses appreciate being taken as lab rats. I saw Burroughs win a contract from IBM; 3 months later the students had figured out how to bring the mainframe to a grinding halt. It didn't take long for that contract to be 'alterred' and have IBMs put back in the shop.

The student's needs weren't critical, but the administration also used the mainframe during the night. Having a tech on hand is no help for them to get the schedules, pay cheques and other administrative paperwork done by the next morning.

Robert

[OXIMBIT]

Hello Robert

You have posted so much and got your self wound up so much, this is going to take a long time to answer them all, but here goes.

First of all I don't seem to have got you PM you did say sent one didn't you.

On the question of who you think I am. I have never tied to hide my identity, even with the anagram (which I got wrong), there’s no rocket science in figuring that one out.

If you can bear with me I will give you a little history. I started using Pbro what must be 5 years ago now and was on the List which still runs today, I asked questions and got replies people helped me and I was extremely grateful. I vowed then to do my utmost to help others in return. From knowing nothing about programming I built up my skills and did my best to pass them on. There was Tip of the day and my automatic timer code generator written entirely with macro's and don't forget instant interrupts. I was one of, if not the first to post methods of providing lookup DW tables.

Then I had project that needed a GLCD so I was looking for a source and found Crownhill sold them. I called them up and asked some technical enquiries, I was put through to the writer of compiler Les (making the most of Pbpro fame) who started to talk about his compiler and what I would do including had better data handling. I though I would take a chance. When I first started using it it was not long before I came across the bugs, they were not in the standard commands but in the complex bank switching algorithm. I used to get really cheesed off and would fire of mails all the time, but Les listened worked really hard and came back with a fix the next day. This is how I became a beta tester because I was pushing the compiler to it’s limits, I could have just thrown in the towel and gone back to Pbpro. Only problem was Pbpro could not do what I wanted it to do with out resorting to all these workarounds. I also saw potential in the compiler and thought to make this a good compiler it really needs to properly tested, Les was doing his best but was unable to do every thing. Rather than just write back I would look at the ASM and find the fault and report back. This must be 3 years ago now so in that time I learnt a lot about the way the compilers works.

As you rightly point out I post an another form, 2,355 + posts to be exact, sure like all regular posters to forums were on an ego trip, we must do it for a fix or something because I sure as hell have other things I should be doing. If you read my posts you will see one consistent theme running through them, helping others. Every post where was a bug complaint I would test then hack the code to find out if there was a problem and if there was I would find a work around. Add to the the 100’s of hours writing code for other people, not just saying try this I actually write it for them! This as you will understand takes shed loads of time. Time that I should have been earning a better living, time I could have been with my family, many a night, I’ve gone to put the kids to bed to find it’s 10pm!

The other thing you will see that I set up with Oliver the user site again to help users not just the other compilers users but any body. This again has taken hours and hours of my time. Recently I decide that the user site was not working and needed a rewrite so I took a day of work to go up to Crownhill to talk about a revamp as they like they do with this forum pay for it. It became apparent that they were not going to rewrite it for me. Now I have no idea how to write HTML so I paid out of my own pocket in excess of $400 to get some one else to do it for me. It’s still not finished and I have a shed load of work to do transferring it all but I’m getting there.

Now why do all this? Because I want to help other Picbasic users. I don’t do it for the money nor does Les the other compiler writer. We do it because we want to put out the best product there is. Les could have stopped years ago in improving the product but he spends just about every night working on it making it better and better. The reason the upgrades are free is because he insisted on it . He just thinks it’s a dam cheek to have to pay to get bug fixes. He also insists that all new features are free. The new optimiser, have a look at C compilers it’s extra. He’s not content to sit back and put up with a so so compiler he wants the best that can be produced.

I have to state that while Les is now a good friend I make no money what so ever from sales of this compiler, no favours, nothing, zilch, absolutely zero.

You have accused me of coming on this forum trying to persuade people to buy this other compiler. What other compiler I make a very important point about not mentioning names. In the past I did I stepped out of line and then apologised for it and to this day I still which had not.

Look to the top of this thread and you might get some idea about why I originally posted it. I was just commenting on after all these years your having to do work arounds. Any thing else was said in response to replies. The one thing I should not have done in hind site is made the post comparing code size but when I did the test I could not believe the difference and did it almost on the spur of the moment I did give you warnings about it.

You will note that my aim here has not been to win customers for other compilers but to stand back in disbelief at what your putting up with. Still as Mel pointed out you should not complain about a product after you bought it. I just think that after 3 years and no improvements in it’s core functionality, you should start to ask questions. Read the posts it all there.

Now I have to say that I’m very disheartened with the action of on of the admin on this forum. When I looked earlier there was post to the effect of “I was trying to move this thread to another section and delete all the unwanted post and in the process managed to delete all the good stuff” Now I know that’s not exactly what was said but that was what I read it as. Now when I look that post has been removed and the original replaced. They obviously had second thoughts. Never in the history of the main forum I post on have they ever removed a thread (as far as I’m aware of). I used to note that Melabs were very selective in only keeping the good posts from the list, and obviously its spreading.

When you look through my 2000+ posts you will see I have never flamed any one. Even when they have asked the most daft questions I bit my tongued and never put any body down. In that last set of mails you have posted more insults than I have in my entire life.

I really could do not care if you buy or don’t buy any compile it’s no skin of my nose. All I care about is users get the best support they can and the best product. The fact that a number of you want to just sit back and accept the status quo on the pretence that "well yes it does produce bloat code and yes it is limited in functionality and yes I have to do loads of work a rounds to do the basic stuff "all on the pretence “well it is 100% bug free” is insult to the rest of the users. Look at the latest releases it say’s fixed…. fixed… even after all these years. Bugs are invertible. I would rather have a product that made it easy to write the complex code I need with out introducing more bugs due to my work a rounds and live with 1% chance of a bug that there is always a quick fix or work around for.

As you take such great exception to my posts I have decide to remove my self from this forum (if it’s possible) and try my hardest never to post here again.

If you looking for a response to any comments you have you may be disappointed.

I leave you with this. I have spent more money and time helping other users than anybody I know. If youre happy to live with your things as they are and your little work a rounds then you will be happy for a very long time.

Before I go I have to clarify that I am not Bot402 and have no idea who that person is. like me there just pointing out some home truths!

[Demon]

I have also been involved in forums, also working my butt off for 'free' 'cause we feel good helping others. You can say that of just about everyone else on this forum.

BUT, never does it excuse someone who actively promotes Product X to go on a forum for Product Y and bash that product. That just is not done, ever.

The fact you get no compensation is irrelevant, as a beta tester you still represent the firm to a degree; not in a legal sense, but in a business sense.

Robert

[Demon]

"I just think that after 3 years and no improvements in it’s core functionality, you should start to ask questions."

Again, work with IBM and see how fast their product evolves. Look at the 360 and 370 platforms specifically.

Robert

[NavMicroSystems]

Do we really need this kind of thread


? ? ? ? ? ?

I guess we don't.

For those who are interrested:
have you clicked on links in the signatures of this thread and tried to navigate on those sites?
(just try it and see what I mean)

Assuming the products are as good as the website:
I don't have any further questions.

[Demon]

Sorry Ralph, you're right, we don't. But I didn't start the thread and I hate seeing someone fling mud with impunity. As for the missing posts, it's obvious trimming has been done. I replied only on the still-present posts from Tim.

"The fact that a number of you want to just sit back and accept the status quo on the pretence that "well yes it does produce bloat code and yes it is limited in functionality and yes I have to do loads of work a rounds to do the basic stuff "all on the pretence “well it is 100% bug free” is insult to the rest of the users. Look at the latest releases it say’s fixed…. fixed… even after all these years."

That is bashing PBP, and I think he's wrong to do it.

"You have accused me of coming on this forum trying to persuade people to buy this other compiler. What other compiler I make a very important point about not mentioning names."

I never accused him of trying to 'steal customers'. The fact he is not naming names like he's done in the past (something I had no idea about since I wasn't here), is irrelevant.

Tim misinforms and I think that is not right. MeLabs is in no obligation to keep the public informed on anything, just like every other business. Disclosing upcoming releases also reveals important information to competition. He exaggerates when in fact the way MeLabs operates is the norm in big business. MeLabs is free to evolve at the rate it wishes. In the end, it's the customers that will decide if it is adequate or not.

The fact that he has close ties to 'the competition' and bashes PBP is totally out of line and I believe he should be called out on it. Ralph, you, Melanie, Steve and the other longtimers will read between the lines and know 'exactly' who Oximbit is and what he is doing. From the standpoint of a newcomer, he looks like someone with a hidden agenda, doing his best to put down a product, without posting anything productive in this forum (referring to the Oximbit ID).

Also, I never said Bot was another alias, I was referring to the Tim alias in the other forums. As for my comment about removing Bot, well this is a wishlist forum but apparently I should have added a sarcasm-o-meter.

Robert

[Demon]

"For those who are interrested:
have you clicked on links in the signatures of this thread and tried to navigate on those sites?
(just try it and see what I mean)"

Sorry Ralph, I see no signatures?

I do see a little avatar, like your Einstein-thingy, but that's it.

Robert

[NavMicroSystems]

Sorry Ralph, I see no signatures?

I do see a little avatar, like your Einstein-thingy, but that's it.

Robert

I meant the signatures on other posts ;-)

[Demon]

D'oh... :lol:

I still believe he was wrong to bash PBP here.

Robert

[NavMicroSystems]

D'oh... :lol:

I still believe he was wrong to bash PBP here.

Robert

No Comment!

[Demon]

Ralph, he only signed his 1st post. That was not the one that really caught my eye, it was the other ones where he bashed PBP and boasted about 'his compiler'.

I still stand by what I said, 'you do not poop on competition'.

Robert

[Melanie]

In case people missed it, I'm the one who split the thread and lost the good bits in the process... I did post an apology in the PBP-Pro section to that effect. It was my intention to leave the code where it belonged and move the debate here. Succeeded in the latter but messed-up the former.

You know there are a heap of seriously crap compilers out there, and I don't count the current Proton or either of MeLabs PICBasics in that category. Some of those have forums too. But it doesn't give us the right to go into those forums and bash those products promoting our favourite in place - that's just bad manners - and I've said that before. If you have to resort to going into a competitors forum to troll for business promoting your product no matter how you package the argument, then there's something very wrong.

I DO KNOW (as do all the Administrators) who OXIMBIT is and who bot402 is - and I'm quite saddened by that because I expected better.