PICs - Playground or 'serious' microcontroller

[selbstdual]

Dear reader,

to me, starting with microcontrollers meant starting with pics.

When I hear 'PIC' I immediately associate it with hobbiist projects,
creative setups made of wood or being connected to standard
boxes and producing only prototypes. Nothing that ever reaches
the style(and size per functions) of an ipod or a palm(In which there
are no pics as I guess).

To be able to rewrite the microcontroller is necessary in developing
something but what about the final product that is to be sold ?

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?

As I said not to talk about the missing design aspect of most setups -
Functionality is above Beauty is an unwritten law in my experience.

[Melanie]

When you buy a new Microwave Oven, do you check what microprocessor is inside? No.

When you buy a new flatscreen TV, do you check what microprocessor is inside? No.

When you buy a new car, do you check what microprocessor controls the engine management system? No.

When you go into hospital, do you check what microprocessor is checking your Blood Pressure and Heart Rate? No.

Next time you drive down the road, did you ever think as to what microprocessor is controlling the city junction traffic lights? No.

Ever think about what microprocessor dispenses the fuel into your car? No.

Ever thought about the microprocessor that keeps your house Heated or Air Conditioned or the water in your shower at optimum temperature? No.

When you drop money into a vending machine for your next can of cold Coke or Coffee or Chocolate Bar, will you first consider what microprocessor is dispensing your chosen vend? No.

People don't care about microprocessors - they care about Cars, Hot Food and getting home on time to a comfortable house, what's on TV tonight, Fuel and Coke and Coffee and Chocolate Bars and Sex! Yup, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of...

So who cares what's inside the box!

[selbstdual]

Who cares what's inside. Everyone who is using circuits to create a new one based on it.

Take motor driving circuits - or LCDs. If I saw a PIC on the back of a LCD, I would smile. But this is me.

Finally all people who do not like proprietary software care what's inside of a technical device aswell.

[Melanie]

Who cares what's inside. Everyone who is using circuits to create a new one based on it.

That's the problem with this world... everyone is imitating instead of innovating...

If I saw a PIC on the back of a LCD, I would smile.

I personally know at least THREE millionaires... each of them became that way because of PICs and MeLabs's PICBasic... and when they see a PIC, they smile too...

[selbstdual]

There is a misunderstanding. It is about innovating - not reinventing.

A software engineer does not need to solder his mainboard.

You are using given components to develop on a higher level -
as it is with PBP compared to ASM.

If you produce for business partners it matters. If you produce for the end
user who wants to use it only - then there's no need to replace the pic.

One question is still there, though:

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?

[Melanie]

One question is still there, though:

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?

Neither. It is just another component on the board.

It's the finished product that counts.

I have seen some very poor professional products where I wonder why the engineers are not in jail, and I have seen amateur products built as a hobby that are 'par excellance' that would put many professional engineers to shame.

[Acetronics2]

Which kinds of associations are evoked when an experienced person
sees 'microchip' on one of the boards' chips ? Amateurish or Professional ?

May be the answer is not so simple ...

Why ask for a Cray computer to count 2+2 ???
Why ask for .0001% calc. precision when your sensors give at best 1 or 2 %

It's not a question of amateur or professionnal ... only a question of more or less known brands ...

The less known, the more professionnal ... of course !!! Only professionnals could know that brand !!!

µChip has been one of the first brands to understand a "cheap" IDE and huge litterature and tools associated with would seriously boost their products selling.

Others only follow ... slowly.

Heard of Cypress ??? what do you think of their PSoC Express ???
Heard of Freescale ??? What do you think of their Processor Expert ???
...

Professionnal tools or amateur tools ???
Professionnal Brands or amateur Brands ???

Alain

[Luciano]

Hi,

The ability to match processing power to the application is an
important consideration when designers select a microcontroller.

For a mass production, the goal is to have adequate processing
power at the lowest possible price.

What kind of applications do you have in mind?


Best regards,

Luciano

[skimask]

Not that it makes a difference in the whole amateur vs. professional arena...but...

I work in a shop where we fix 'obsolete', no longer procurable items.
I'll pull apart a lot of items on a daily basis to see what's what...and if it's fixable or not...
There are a lot of PIC's out there. A lot of the PIC16Cxx types are in quite a few household appliances, washers, dryers, microwaves, etc. (generally these items are too old to have flash PICs in them). I taken a number of the PICs to my house to check them out. Read out the old code (you'd be surprised how many of the older PICs are code protected!!!), burn some new code to try out the pin drivers, reburn the old code). I haven't found one yet that had failed, 99.9% of the time, it's something else (i.e. motor, gear train, valve, etc).
Of course this is just off the top of my head. I've seen PICs in numerous other places. And I will say that it appears that the PICs major role in these items is as reprogrammable glue logic, which is exactly what PICs 'back in the day' were made for, take up a load of discrete logic chips, pack them into one chip.
And again, all name brand stuff.
And that's the beauty of a PIC......good enough for the pro's, simple enough for the schmo's....
(and I keep going back to post #2, something about a pic in the box in the box...)

[Melanie]

The perception of something amateurish or professional is in the eye of the beholder.

So, professional or amateur?

The definition is one who gets paid for doing something, or one who does it without recompense, for a hobby or for the love of it. Just because you get paid for doing something doesn't mean you're any better than someone who doesn't.

Professionnal Brands or amateur Brands ???

Let's put forward an example. Fit SIEMENS (premium European brand) Relay at about $1 or HONGFA (Chinese budget brand) at 21 cents? Which is the professional? What about Contactors? Fit SIEMENS brand at SIX times the price of Chinese TEKO brand? It may surprise you to learn that SIEMENS consistantly fails in the field, yet their market dominance and perception of a premium professional brand means they'll continue to peddle their overpriced products, and those who know no better will continue to buy their offerings.

Definition of a professional company? One who has better PR and a stronger salesforce.

[selbstdual]

It's the finished product that counts.

Not in security relevant areas.

I have seen some very poor professional products where I wonder why the engineers are not in jail, and I have seen amateur products built as a hobby that are 'par excellance' that would put many professional engineers to shame.

Examples ? I have never seen an amateur designing an ipod like device. Especially concerning the thickness.

The less known, the more professionnal.

The less known, the less trustworthy.

Heard of Cypress ??? what do you think of their PSoC Express ???
Heard of Freescale ??? What do you think of their Processor Expert ???.

I can't see a connection to the topic.

The ability to match processing power to the application is an
important consideration when designers select a microcontroller.

Yes. There are compareable products, which have the same processing power but are not used by hobbyists. I think it is a curse for b2b if your products are mainly used by hobbyists. Well, hobbyist does not need to be equal to producing amateurish products, but this is how it is perceived often.

For a mass production, the goal is to have adequate processing
power at the lowest possible price.

Yes.

What kind of applications do you have in mind?

What do you mean ?

The perception of something amateurish or professional is in the eye of the beholder.

I am talking about professional people in the working areas being mentioned (mainly security). Imagine a power plant where the brown out bit is set in a pic and the pic suddenly stops working.

Just because you get paid for doing something doesn't mean you're any better than someone who doesn't.

You invest more time in the same thing. The same as in university: You know a lot more than someone who has not studied a subject yet. There is a higher probability that your circuits are better because you know more approaches to a solution.

Definition of a professional company? One who has better PR and a stronger salesforce.

Yes.

[keithdoxey]

Yes. There are compareable products, which have the same processing power but are not used by hobbyists. I think it is a curse for b2b if your products are mainly used by hobbyists. Well, hobbyist does not need to be equal to producing amateurish products, but this is how it is perceived often.

PICs are used by hobbyists because they are easy to use and the development tools are cheap. That doesnt mean that PICs arent used in commercial products. I have a couple of Kenwood 5" TFT Monitors and the controlling chip is a PIC.

Yes a lot of hobbyists use PICs and between them probably buy thousands of devices per year but someone like Melanie buys thousands of devices for a single product their company produces.

I have over a thousand items out there containing PICs and in over 5 years there hasnt beeen a single failure caused by a PIC or the software.

I am talking about professional people in the working areas being mentioned (mainly security). Imagine a power plant where the brown out bit is set in a pic and the pic suddenly stops working.

That comment is fatally flawed. Many microcontrollers have brownout detection etc. How the microcontroller is programmed and how the hardware/software responds to brownouts etc is down to the skills of the designer.

I have never seen an amateur designing an ipod like device. Especially concerning the thickness.

Hmmmm.... at least one member of this list has designed an MP3 player using a PIC. True, it is probably larger than an iPod but then the first generation iPods were considerably larger than current models. Its also a fair bet that the proof of concept design wasnt all that small. Given the facilities to produce the required hardware there is no reason why an "amateur" couldnt create such a design but the tools, facilities and finance required are beyond their means.

The whole Amateur/Professional division is a difficult line to draw.

The word professional can be used to indicate someone with formal qualifications, someone who is paid for doing a particular task, or can be used to indicate the finished look of a product.

An amateur may earn a few beer tokens for their hobby in which case they could be classed as semi-professional, they could have far greater knowledge than someone with formal qualifications but just dont have that "bit of paper" and they can (and often do) produce work to a very high standard.

Getting back the the thread title, my opinion is that the PIC is both Playground AND Serious Microcontroller.

Serious Microcontroller because millions of electronic items contain PICs and Playground because it is an affordable way for hobbyists to get into Microcontrollers.

[Darrel Taylor]

This probably doesn't help, but....

There are PIC's flying on the International Space Station.

The reason it won't help, is because the only one's I know about are on "amateur" science projects.

And to top it off ... I heard some Basic Stamps made it up there too.
What's the world coming to.

.

[keithdoxey]

This probably doesn't help, but....

There are PIC's flying on the International Space Station.

The reason it won't help, is because the only one's I know about are on "amateur" science projects.

And to top it off ... I heard some Basic Stamps made it up there too.
What's the world coming to.

.

Like I said..... its difficult to draw the line

[Ron Marcus]

I consider myself a hobbyist. I love playing with PICs and "that new component" in the Digikey catalog that I have to order overnight so I can look at it tomorrow, revel in it's new component smell(?) and dream of it's potential....Even though I may not build it into a project for six months!
On the other hand, I have designed and built devices using PICs that are used by goverment, military, and commercial entities that I have been paid for and complimented on for their performance. They run a mix of PBP and assembly language as the timing dictated. If PICs are a playground, I have dug up a lot of cash in the sandbox! Now, I would like to get into 16 and 32 bit power for some upcoming video projects, but that would mean jumping into the "C"! So it's time to get the toes wet with the 24F series. C'mon Melabs, we need a second sandbox!

Ron
(Perfessional Hobbyist...and loving it!)

[skimask]

Examples ? I have never seen an amateur designing an ipod like device. Especially concerning the thickness.

http://web.ndak.net/jdgrotte/mp3player/mp3_player.html
Version 5 of that 'hobbyist project' was going to be 1 1/2" thick, 80GB drive, lithium-ion pack, color GLCD, RF remote, IR remote, RF FM Xmtr, OBD2 interface, USB 2 support...
Then I gave up because the market got saturated a few years ago...

The less known, the less trustworthy.

And 'Sodamm Insane' was a saint?

[mister_e]

it's somehow insane. What's a microcontroller anyway?

Black pinned box with memory code and I/O. Write whatever you want on, they will do the job.

Cypress, Freescale, Ti, Zilog, StMicroelectronics and ALL new monthly brands you could see in EP&T and Electronic Design magazine... who will care as they do their job?

Yes some are more powerful, some less. Microchip ofer many different range of microcontroller, from the most stupid 10F to DsPIC. I use them all, i love 'em all. But yes, in some case i may need to use another brand for more powerful application. It's called, BlackFin.

Get the job done and that's it.

The software developer have something to do with it.

[selbstdual]

There are PIC's flying on the International Space Station.

Yes, I see

[paul borgmeier]

Hey, did you see that Microchip shipped its five-billionth microcontroller late last year (thats 5000000000 microcontrollers)? They also sold a billion of them during the year leading up to this total.
I had no idea there were that many amateurs out there.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...oSOLUTIONS.pdf (see page 9 for details)

[Normnet]

But yes, in some case i may need to use another brand for more powerful application. It's called, BlackFin.

Is BlackFin code in C?
What applications in Blackfin?

Norm

[selbstdual]

So the fact that microchip has a lot of b2b customers is being proven by the amount of sold out pics.

The following questions apply to all participants in this thread(and those deciding to join):

First: Where is proof that these pics went into security relevant areas ?
Second: How many are using pic circuits to create a new one based on it ?
Third: On which LCD is a pic ?
Fourth: Who is using a given pic circuitry, whose interest is in non proprietary software aswell ?

PS: I don't trust these statistics.

Hey, did you see that Microchip shipped its five-billionth microcontroller late last year (thats 5000000000 microcontrollers)? They also sold a billion of them during the year leading up to this total.
I had no idea there were that many amateurs out there.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...oSOLUTIONS.pdf (see page 9 for details)

[keithdoxey]

So the fact that microchip has a lot of b2b customers is being proven by the amount of sold out pics.


First: Where is proof that these pics went into security relevant areas ?.

That wasnt part of your original post but I am sure there are quite a few security prodcts that contain PICs

Second: How many are using pic circuits to create a new one based on it ?.

What do you mean by that ???

Third: On which LCD is a pic ?.

If you mean as the acutal display driver, probably none as a dedicated chip will be the best means of driving the actual display but there are many LCD displays fitted wth "Serail Backpacks" that are PIC based and an LCD monitor that I have by Kenwood uses a 16 series PIC as its control MPU.

Fourth: Who is using a given pic circuitry, whose interest is in non proprietary software aswell ?

What do you mean by that ???

[selbstdual]

That wasnt part of your original post but I am sure there are quite a few security prodcts that contain PICs

..

If you mean as the acutal display driver, probably none as a dedicated chip will be the best means of driving the actual display but there are many LCD displays fitted wth "Serail Backpacks" that are PIC based and an LCD monitor that I have by Kenwood uses a 16 series PIC as its control MPU.

keithdoxey, you are trying too hard to be against my arguments. Agreeing with what I wrote is no big deal

How many are using pic circuits to create a new one based on it ?.

What do you mean by that ??

Person A creates a circuitry based on a pic. Person B creates a circuitry based on A's circuitry.

Fourth: Who is using a given pic circuitry, whose interest is in non proprietary software aswell ?

What do you mean by that ???

Someone who is interested in knowing what happens. Refer to above.

[T.Jackson]

To say that PIC micros are bound entirely within the scope of (hobbyist / amateur) market only is near border line ridiculous. The last thing on Microchip's mind is a $5 sale from a few hobbyists here and there. I'd hate to think of the cost involved to design these devices. Anyones guess is as good as mine, upwards of a few million?. C'mon, get real - there's simply just not enough amateurs around to be able to justify it. My guess is that only a few percent of sales are generated from the hobbyist. Microchip's intentions are obvious to me, give them half the chance and they'll probably give Intel a run for their money next.

[mister_e]

Is BlackFin code in C?
What applications in Blackfin?

Norm

Variant of C/C++ and / Or assembler.

Mainly for multiformat audio, image processing, video. Pretty sure it's fast enough to generate color video without too much effort.

Since now i just updated some customer firmware and did some test. REALLY impressive, but... not something i would use daily.

[Jerson]

The following questions apply to all participants in this thread(and those deciding to join):

First: Where is proof that these pics went into security relevant areas ?

I designed my electronic coffers and doorlocks around the PIC. Do these qualify as security products?

Jerson

[Melanie]

Do you have PICs in Security Camera's? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Remote Camera Platforms? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Camera Quads? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Security Recording Devices? Yes.
Do you have PICs in PIR Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Break-Glass Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Vibration Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Microwave Doppler Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Burglar Alarm Controllers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in High Security Line Drivers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Alarm Autodiallers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Door Access Controls? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Credit Card Readers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Bank Front-Office Transaction Terminals? Yes.
Do you have PICs in ATM's? (Cash Machines for those who don't know what an ATM is) Yes.

umm... how big a security list do you want?

[sinoteq]

If the brand decides if a thing is Amateurish or Professional then beeing a Professional golfplayer must be really hard. As soon as you find a brand with the professional feeling to it, any amateur wants to buy it. Then you think, I'll go for the most expensive brand that most amateurs can't affort. Doing that will only make sure you end up among the worst kind of amateurs, the ones with too much money and usually no talents at all in the specific field.

Of course there is a difference between these two groups, in a similar way there are amateur and professional people cooking. Sure once in a while even an amateur can make a great dish, but the professional can make it everytime. It is not what you mix together. It is how you mix them! or even more so, how not to mix.

/me

[RussMartin]

Keith makes a good point on the distinction between "amateur" and "professional". "Amateur" in its strict sense means one who loves a pursuit; the word is not automatically synonymous with "novice" or "shoddy".

When I was starting out with microcontrollers and microprocessors, it meant devices like the 8008 (and the 4004), 8080, and 8085. (That was a really long time ago!)

In the early and middle 1980s, I remember hearing some "professionals" (other engineers) sneer at the Z-80 as a "toy". ("Amateurs" had started using them.)

I had the opportunity, earlier this month, to spend 5-1/2 days at MicroChip's 11th annual Masters Conference and PreConference in Phoenix--about 44 in-class hours, most with labs. And I got to mingle with 800 other engineers, many from other countries, who are using PICs daily in every imaginable application design.

[Christopher4187]

I just enjoyed when Melanie said, "Yup, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of..."

[mackrackit]

I just enjoyed when Melanie said, "Yup, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of..."

Is that an amateur or professional vibrator.

[pmcleod]

, there's even a microchip PIC in one brand of vibrator that I know of...

So who cares what's inside the box!

Sorry to come into this late, but an engineer I know hates PICs so much, when asked by "A friend" to repair one of these he replaced the PIC with an AVR, the heathen;-) but apparently he tripled the number of operating modes.

I'm with you though, it matters what the product does, not what's inside to make it happen. My next project will be based around a smallish PIC but will sell, for circa £1000 (I hope)

[selbstdual]

Do you have PICs in Security Camera's? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Remote Camera Platforms? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Camera Quads? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Security Recording Devices? Yes.
Do you have PICs in PIR Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Break-Glass Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Vibration Sensors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Microwave Doppler Detectors? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Burglar Alarm Controllers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in High Security Line Drivers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Alarm Autodiallers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Door Access Controls? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Secure Credit Card Readers? Yes.
Do you have PICs in Bank Front-Office Transaction Terminals? Yes.
Do you have PICs in ATM's? (Cash Machines for those who don't know what an ATM is) Yes.

umm... how big a security list do you want?

I see no proof for any item. Do you have any ?

[mackrackit]

selbstdual,

Are you a professional? Your bio says you are a tax inspector, so you must be an armature in electronics.

Many of the people on this forum (myself included) make their living one way or another with electronics. Also, I would guess that many of these people (myself included again) are doing custom jobs (less than 1000 units) or proto-typing for a larger firm, working under a given set of specifications. I know of some that are doing R+D for projects with military specifications.

Why should someone here provide proof to you that the parts we use are used in other products.
Many have posted on this thread telling you that they use PICs in their security devices or that they know PICs are used in security devices. Yet you ask for proof. You even denied the sales statistics given for PICs. I see that as you calling the people on this forum liars.

You sir owe many an apology.

[Melanie]

I wasn't aware that I had to provide proof of every statement I make.

Here is Microchips annual report...

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...Y07_Annual.pdf

Perhaps selbstdual can tell us where $1billion worth of sales went...

Actually if I was the President of Microchip, I wouldn't give a sh*t if every one of my chips went into a toy as long as the money keeps rolling into the Bank!

Good luck to them and to the rest of us that earn a damn-good living from this business.

[keithdoxey]

I see no proof for any item. Do you have any ?

No... but I trust what Melanie says. I have seen PICs in many products including some that have the numbers erased from chips.

Your responses to well thought out replies within this thread indicate that no matter what we say you will still argue the point so therefore this thread is nothing more than a troll and I will not contribute to it nor any other of your posts any more.

[Luciano]

Hi,

The brain is an organ like all of the other organs in the body.
The brain is vulnerable to a great many disorders, many of them chronic.
DysPICxia is a very rare disorder with a worldwide incidence of 0.5
to 1.0 cases per million per year.

Be tolerant!

Best regards,

Luciano

[RussMartin]

Perhaps selbstdual would be happier using something from the 8051 family of devices, and BASIC for it (maybe BASCOM-51). There are plenty of forums and support!

(Oops--I forgot; there are a lot of "amateurs" using 8051s! Darn! )

[NF9Ω]

Perhaps selbstdual would be happier using something from the 8051 family of devices, and BASIC for it (maybe BASCOM-51). There are plenty of forums and support!

(Oops--I forgot; there are a lot of "amateurs" using 8051s! Darn! )

8051 (AT) series have no security. One can Extract code easily with some tricks.
Microchip have great security except F84, So my point of view, PIC is 'serious' micro.

[T.Jackson]

Hi,

The brain is an organ like all of the other organs in the body.
The brain is vulnerable to a great many disorders, many of them chronic.
DysPICxia is a very rare disorder with a worldwide incidence of 0.5
to 1.0 cases per million per year.

You'll probably find that some of the cat scan systems have a PIC buried somewhere in them.