Would you be willing to Pay?

[Melanie]

There's nothing more democratic than asking the punters (Democracy is where 51% of the voters decide to shoot the other 49%)... this isn't from Lester or Crownhill, this is from little ol me... just for curiosities sake...

My primary thought was to eliminate the spam... you want view, it's free, you want to post, then pay for the privellege (you pay and then you spam, you'll still be deleted as rules will still apply).

It's totally anonymous, so however you vote will in no way come back to bite you in the a*s...

Copied from lower-down so folks can see my reasoning...

My thought was that a spammer won't pay anything to peddle their message (especially since it'll be deleted anyway) and it'll kill that problem totally. But surely anyone/everyone, would be willing to pay $1. After all, if you want to view, glean whatever you can, learn whatever you can, you can still do so for free... But a Dollar, even in India, is attainable! Let's face it, if you're only earning ten Rupees a day, you're not going to have an internet connection or a legitimate copy of PICBasic. And a Dollar to ask a forum that just might help you pass your exam - is that worth it?

We may have three-thousand registered members, but only a fraction of those have ever posted anything. If you're one of the majority that have never posted, charging a nominal fee won't affect you.

What if I added... if you are already a member, and have posted in the past, you get free memebership? But all newbee's gotta pay a single one-off Dollar?

[mackrackit]

That is a bit open ended. How much do we pay?

[duncan303]

It's pay-per-post :D

The more you use the more you pay...... thats true democracy....

where's the voting booth exactly ... ?:D


Ill get my Hat............

[Melanie]

Had to take a phone call before the poll was posted... so it should appear now...

Pay per post... nobody would answer!!!!

[Acetronics]

Hi, Mel

What about " pay for full code seeing and Downloading " ???

looks a reasonnable option to me ...

Alain

[Jerson]

IMHO I feel any options to pay to post will only make this a closed forum. I prefer it the way it is now. Moreover in my part of the world, even the proposal for a meagre $20 could mean a lot to a student at todays dollar rates(almost 50INR to a dollar). Au contraire if spam posters are the problem, could we not have some kind of captcha mechanism to make sure a human is posting? How about using cookies to block the user from posting again within a span of an hour? I'm no expert at web programming; just thinking aloud.

However, I propose a paid consulting section where folks could post their problems to be solved for a fee decided mutually. This would keep the people wanting free help (could include learners) away from the ones wanting to pay for the help they get.

Jerson

[skimask]

Almost sounds like it's turning into this sort of a system...http://www.justanswer.com/
I already paid for my software, I don't ask a lot of questions, don't create a lot of threads, again, already paid for my software and updates aplenty.
If a site goes 'Pay-Per-View' style, I might look, but won't touch (lots of people will probably like that a lot :D ).
Not making a dime (pence? schilling? euro-ette? which is it?) from helping other people as it is now, and sure as hell am not going to spend a dime to help others in the future. Wouldn't mind making a dime off it all. It's easy enough with PayPal and a robust email server, but that's not going to happen.
Stop the spam? Lock out the new registration for a day or two here and there. Sure, it'll suck for the person trying to get in, but if it's that important (i.e. school project due tomorrow! :) ), they should know to be patient.

[duncan303]

IMHO I feel any options to pay to post will only make this a closed forum.

This is a significant problem, the forum would certainly lose its current flavour. Maybe then they should look a social democracy where those that can pay towards the cost of blocking spam do so.

oh yes the "captcha mechanism to make sure a human is posting?" is currently aka Melanie and Darrel.

anyway I am concerned that any new bot may recognise my contributions as spam:D, lets hope they do not introduce a troll detector!!

would it not harm students to join collectively and come right out and declare themselves.

Some peolple here might appreciate being acknowledged and recognised as classroom assistants. Maybe the course designer could allocate a sum before setting their class a course that relies on use of this forum.....,


just thinking out loud as usuall.

[Melanie]

My thought was that a spammer won't pay anything to peddle their message (especially since it'll be deleted anyway) and it'll kill that problem totally. But surely anyone/everyone, would be willing to pay $1. After all, if you want to view, glean whatever you can, learn whatever you can, you can still do so for free... But a Dollar, even in India, is attainable! Let's face it, if you're only earning ten Rupees a day, you're not going to have an internet connection or a legitimate copy of PICBasic. And a Dollar to ask a forum that just might help you pass your exam - is that worth it?

We may have three-thousand registered members, but only a fraction of those have ever posted anything. If you're one of the majority that have never posted, charging a nominal fee won't affect you.

What if I added... if you are already a member, and have posted in the past, you get free memebership? But all newbee's gotta pay a single one-off Dollar?

[duncan303]

Not making a dime (pence? schilling? euro-ette? which is it?) from helping other people as it is now, and sure as hell am not going to spend a dime to help others in the future. Wouldn't mind making a dime off it all.

You are a significant helper here, if you went missing for a day we would phone an ambulance..:D

unless it is one of your old tricks again.........

I am not clever enough to help anybody out, so I feel I should help out in others ways, and as I just use use use then I would appreciate the mechanism to contribute in another way.

but if I gave gave gave, like you, then I would be as p***** as you, at the insult


______

[skimask]

You are a significant helper here, if you went missing for a day we would phone an ambulance..:D
I'd like to hear one of those horns blaring over here :D

I am not clever enough to help anybody out
I don't think that's true at all...

just thinking out loud as usuall.
Forgot your hat again :)

But surely anyone/everyone, would be willing to pay $1.
Ya know, I was just in the back room doing some circuit card rework (blown traces, laying down new laminate, etc) and I got to thinking the same thing. If this forum is anything, once in awhile, it's some fairly decent entertainment...

[Joe S.]

Hi Melanie, and All,
My thoughts were, as far as paying goes was to make a small charge for the Web space Lester was talking about only, not for other forum privileges. It would serve the spam issue there and help offset costs. Students would still be free to ask us to do their projects . . . many forums do not allow newbies to post for a while in their counter assault on spam.

[duncan303]

I'd like to hear one of those horns blaring over here :D
Presumably this explains why you are all practicing emergency medical procedures on each other, I confess I would be concerned that an observer would seize the opportunity to practice their skills in ”how to perform an emergency tracheotomy with an empty Biro case” trick on me..
or worse improvised defibrillation with standard office equipment. Now there’s an electronic topic


Picking up on Jerson today and Joe S yesterday…….. I was reminded of how big and varied the world is and in particular I visualised the “barefoot college” www.barefootcollege.org/enroll1.htm and the work they do especially for women in India. Now if they approached the forum for help in any of their “Solar Electrification projects” I would be delighted to offer all the help I could, (I may well be able to help with this one) and I would pay their subscription for life!!!!


Instead we have posters “pussyfooting around” (in the literal sense, a well known UK term) in their presentation of problems either because they are *:<>%^&*!!!””%^()‘s or too scared to reveal their true identities, I guess we all know whom we would prefer to help.

Posters are encouraged to post problems out of context is it any wonder that there are threads started containing body text stating simply “please help I can’t get my PIC to start”

An open forum is by necessity wham bam thankyou ma’am, ……… next.

But is this how it is always going to be??

Maybe there's a parallel model with our good fiend Billy Gates "we know China uses windows we just have to find a way of getting them to pay for it"

_____

[skimask]

Presumably this explains why you are all practicing emergency medical procedures on each other, I confess I would be concerned that an observer would seize the opportunity to practice their skills in ”how to perform an emergency tracheotomy with an empty Biro case” trick on me..or worse improvised defibrillation with standard office equipment. Now there’s an electronic topic
It's all practice, purely a 'procedural' type thing, not an actual practical type thing.
Although, we do get trained (on dummies of course) on some pretty advanced stuff 'out in the field stuff', like the tracheotomy, pocket knife, some rubbing alcohol, and a 'click-type' pen. Whatever works in a serious pinch...

in particular I visualised the “barefoot college” www.barefootcollege.org/enroll1.htm and the work they do especially for women in India.
And by the same token, think about the clowns that come around claiming to be from the same type of group, using their name and/or likeness for their own benefit, like the 'American Cancer Federation' over here in the States awhile back. Claimed to be doing cancer research. Yep, they were doing cancer research alright...looking it up Wikipedia was about it...

Mel...I think you opened up a can of worms! :)

[BobP]

Hi All,

Just my 2 penny worth.

I have paid for my computer, my software (including PSP), my programmer, my pic chips and hardware. Paying a token amount say 5 pounds each year would be insignificant compared to the help and knowledge I have had from this forum.

As Melanie has said the amount needn’t be much to keep out the spammers and still encourage students etc. where money is tight.

I like the suggestion of free to browse but having to pay a membership to post and enter restricted areas. This unfortunately will restrict newbie’s to PBP. But this could be partly offset if we give a year’s free membership with every purchase or upgrade to PBP. If someone hasn’t paid for the software then at least get them to pay to use the forum.

Although 70% of my programming is treated as a hobby unlike other basic compilers I have used (and to stop me getting flamed) in my opinion PBP is a professional tool. PBP is the only software that I have used that has been totally bug free. If a program doesn’t work then it’s me that’s screwed up! The forum reflects this professionalism and I would pay to stop the spammers destroying it.

But would like to see the stars of this forum get an honorary free membership for their valuable contributions.


Bob

[duncan303]

like the 'American Cancer Federation' over here in the States awhile back. Claimed to be doing cancer research. Yep, they were doing cancer research alright...looking it up Wikipedia was about it...

and how many posts before keerrrrrrrrchiiiiiiing? or how many lines?

we enjoy helping genuine people and yet are disgusted with ourselves for being hood winked,

we try to make sure nobody pulls the wool over our eyes......, thats not why you wear that mask is it???:)
Maybe I should stick to holding doors open for people, us brits are damn good at that apparantly

anyway poped over to the yellow guys to see what they are up to and tried to log on to wikisandbox but our passwords are forum specific, I can sense I am not going to be much help in this.

even seem to be having difficulty even trying to set up another group poll :(

_______

[duncan303]

But would like to see the stars of this forum get an honorary free membership for their valuable contributions.
Bob

I agree

consider that any posible subscription would be offset against the agreement to purchase ongoing upgrades with crownhill, then any subscription would be optional.

However for those who chose not to or were /unwilling/unable to provide licence details or those would prefer not to or were /unwilling/unable to chose crownhill as thier prefered supplier for upgrades. then they would have the option to offer a small contribution.

If someone hasn’t paid for the software then at least get them to pay to use the forum.
its not looking too popular on the vote though.

_____

[skimask]

thats not why you wear that mask is it???:)
Long story short...drinking in the winter, cold outside, wearing the mask, drank too much, you know what happens next, didn't get anything on the mask in the process...Instant nickname...

Maybe I should stick to holding doors open for people, us brits are damn good at that apparantly
I was in Fairford for 3 months back in '03, got treated better overall there than anywhere over here, sat in a small (very small) pub with about 12 other locals (along with the owner of nikamelectronics based out of Fairford, another PIC guy)...First time I had pounds in my pocket, a pint in my hand, and I was the only one in the room that talked funny :)

But would like to see the stars of this forum get an honorary free membership for their valuable contributions.
I suppose then you get into that whole 'I did just as much as member#1 and so on, why didn't I get a freebit?'...you know...whining...

[b1arrk5]

I see the value, I've needed help on a weekend when no one was at MeLabs, but Darrel and Steve and Ski and Bruce and Melanie and many others were here. I've learned, I've been entertained, and I've tried to help on those rare occasions when I think I can.

How about a pay to download? Look all you want, post all you want, but if you want to download code then cough up a buck or two. If you don't want to pay then you can sit and type out what you read. When you see that most posters endorse something like Darrel's Instant Interrupts, and that the author is here every day answering questions, you should see value in paying a minor amount to be able to download working code. Another example would be Steve's PicMulti-Calc program, well worth a few bucks to download, and again, a lot of posters have pointed other users to this program, so you know that it's a worthwhile download.

Thanks again to all,
Jerry.

[Joe S.]

I see the value, I've needed help on a weekend when no one was at MeLabs, but Darrel and Steve and Ski and Bruce and Melanie and many others were here. I've learned, I've been entertained, and I've tried to help on those rare occasions when I think I can.

How about a pay to download? Look all you want, post all you want, but if you want to download code then cough up a buck or two. If you don't want to pay then you can sit and type out what you read. When you see that most posters endorse something like Darrel's Instant Interrupts, and that the author is here every day answering questions, you should see value in paying a minor amount to be able to download working code. Another example would be Steve's PicMulti-Calc program, well worth a few bucks to download, and again, a lot of posters have pointed other users to this program, so you know that it's a worthwhile download.

Thanks again to all,
Jerry.
Meaning no disrespect Jerry, how the heck would that work, you see code, click, drag, copy, paste, you've got it . . .

[T.Jackson]

I think that $20 for a one year subscription is considerably very fair.

Perhaps this "fee" might appear more attractive if it were to include some discounts on some of the parts that Crownhill sell. Kinda like a "Trade Card" discount. Which, of course, you would only be eligible for after passing a verification process (same as eBay) -- a phone call to your place of residence.

[T.Jackson]

Meaning no disrespect Jerry, how the heck would that work, you see code, click, drag, copy, paste, you've got it . . .

There are ways to lock text using Javascript, the strength of the lock is sometimes browser dependent.

As you stated earlier: "locks keep honest people honest, thieves will usually always break the lock"

I will never publicize details on how to break a lock. I'm a computer programmer, not a criminal.

[Joe S.]

There are ways to lock text using Javascript, the strength of the lock is sometimes browser dependent.

As you stated earlier: "locks keep honest people honest, thieves will usually always break the lock"

I will never publicize details on how to break a lock. I'm a computer programmer, not a criminal. Like Auctiva uses on their pictures, Firefox with NoScripts kills that, 12 year olds know that, I use it so as to Zoom pictures on Ebay, which their scripts block. Bottom line is I would be willing to pay a little for the personal space, not to download or post.

[T.Jackson]

Like Auctiva uses on their pictures, Firefox with NoScripts kills that, 12 year olds know that, I use it so as to Zoom pictures on Ebay, which their scripts block.

I really don't think that you should be publicizing that, even if it is a considerably "weak", commonly known, security measure.

[Joe S.]

I really don't think that you should be publicizing that, even if it is a considerably "weak", commonly known, security measure.
See Trent, that's where we differ , I see scripts as an INVASION of My browser, not a security feature, they are responsible for pop ups and other irritants, I block Flash apps. too. Hate the darn things.

[T.Jackson]

See Trent, that's where we differ , I see scripts as an INVASION of My browser, not a security feature, they are responsible for pop ups and other irritants, I block Flash apps. too. Hate the darn things.

You shouldn't need to disable scripts in order to block pop ups, at least I don't think so. Statistics reveal that around 90% of all users have Javascript enabled (I can reference to this)

[duncan303]

Hi Joe S
I know I have taken this out of context but please permit me to quote:
I see scripts as an INVASION of My browser, not a security feature, they are responsible for pop ups and other irritants, I block Flash apps. too. Hate the darn things.

I guess it would seem that revenue generating scripts on the forum then are both undesirable and ineffective, that’s cleared that up then :D


Anyway with only 11 people willing to contribute ($117 annual and $33 lifetime) to the costs and an equal number of outright refusals… things are not looking promising at all.

Ok lets just convert that to £uk because the kit that keeps us going is un uk so 150*(2/9) + etc etc roughly £72UK

Lets assume uk electricity charge is 27p/Khr and the server is 300W. well that’s roughly 8p per hour to run.

Mmmmmmm so we have sponsored roughly 888 hrs of forum uptime

Therefore sometime around the 27 November we are all going to be staring at the blank screen like frightened rabbits.Subscribers are going to demand a proportion of their money back, god it all gets just too complicated.



I propose we apply for charitable status pretty quick....... or is it already a charity……….does anybody know?


___

[T.Jackson]

See Trent, that's where we differ , I see scripts as an INVASION of My browser, not a security feature, they are responsible for pop ups and other irritants, I block Flash apps. too. Hate the darn things.

Just further to my last comment: how can it be an invasion when the rightful owner is simply attempting to secure their intellectual property? (which is really what we're talking about here)

File IO is not permitted in any client side languages, so I must therefore argue that there is absolutely no possible invasion that's likely to occur. I don't consider a pop up to be an invasion. An annoyance perhaps.

Client side languages are a good thing, not evil.

[mackrackit]

I propose we apply for charitable status pretty quick....... or is it already a charity……….does anybody know?

Looks to me like it already is a charity provided by Lester.

Wonder how many would be willing to make a donation to help Lester keep this service going and maybe add the proposed features to make it better and forget this "pay to post" stuff.

I bet not many.

When you look at how many come on here asking questions and never even try to reciprocate.

When you look at how many are only here to get the free code and do not even want to make the investment of learning.

When you look at how few are trying to answer questions.

When you look at the complaints about how a question is sometimes answered.

I bet the only ones that would even consider helping Lester are the ones that are trying to answer the questions and make a contribution in that manner, not the "free coders".
(I do know of a few that are trying to learn that would help)

So if this happens
Therefore sometime around the 27 November we are all going to be staring at the blank screen Then so be it. It has been fun.

[The Master]

Client side languages are a good thing, not evil.

Im with you on this one. The new version of my site (not online yet) uses a lot of javascript for various different things yet there is not a single popup. The thousands of lines of JS are simply to make things better for the user.

I like the idea of new users having to pay to sign up even if its hardly anything. It would definately stop spam but it would stop almost everyone else too. I would gladly pay to sign up now i know how usefull this site is but when i origionally arrived here if i was asked to pay anything i would have clicked straight off of it without even checking how good it is.

Ive seen "paying for downloads" mentioned a few times. There are a few problems with that. Obviously there is security as mentioned above but most of the time people can explain things well enough without you having to donwload some code that they write. You also have to think that users upload their projects for one of the 'experts' to have a look at. Im sure the expert wouldnt want to pay to download it.

I think charging for downloading special examples (like DT's instant interrupts etc) should be the descision of the person who wrote it and they should get all the profit. It is ofcourse all their work

[T.Jackson]

Looks to me like it already is a charity provided by I bet the only ones that would even consider helping Lester are the ones that are trying to answer the questions and make a contribution in that manner, not the "free coders".
(I do know of a few that are trying to learn that would help)


C'mon mate what about the people who have given away projects (completed ones that actually work! with 20K+ hits)

[T.Jackson]

Im with you on this one. The new version of my site (not online yet) uses a lot of javascript for various different things yet there is not a single popup. The thousands of lines of JS are simply to make things better for the user.

I like the idea of new users having to pay to sign up even if its hardly anything. It would definately stop spam but it would stop almost everyone else too. I would gladly pay to sign up now i know how usefull this site is but when i origionally arrived here if i was asked to pay anything i would have clicked straight off of it without even checking how good it is.

Ive seen "paying for downloads" mentioned a few times. There are a few problems with that. Obviously there is security as mentioned above but most of the time people can explain things well enough without you having to donwload some code that they write. You also have to think that users upload their projects for one of the 'experts' to have a look at. Im sure the expert wouldnt want to pay to download it.

I think charging for downloading special examples (like DT's instant interrupts etc) should be the descision of the person who wrote it and they should get all the profit. It is ofcourse all their work

I wouldn't suspect anyone who posts from here on in.

Because how in the world could you seriously argue with the notion that Java is not truly a technological wonder?

[mackrackit]

C'mon mate what about the people who have given away projects (completed ones that actually work! with 20K+ hits)
Yep, you spent a lot of time working with people when they have trouble with those. So that would put you in the contributing category.

[lester]

We have said it before and to make sure everyone is clear on this.

Crownhill, are not and have not, asked for donataions or fee's for the provision of this resource.

The poll was just an idea by Melanie, to guage the reaction and see if users would make a contribution.

I think that the response so far says it all.

However i was thinking that, maybe, just for the users that would like to say thank you. We could set up a Paypal account for donations. Crownhill would administer the account and the funds could be used to get something for the admins on Xmas and birthdays.

Personally, a little something from Hotel Chocolate always seems to make things right for me.

I'm sure other admins have their weaknesses and a little something every now and again might just keep them slaving away on your behalf.


Just a little thought, good night:)

[Joe S.]

Just further to my last comment: how can it be an invasion when the rightful owner is simply attempting to secure their intellectual property? (which is really what we're talking about here)

File IO is not permitted in any client side languages, so I must therefore argue that there is absolutely no possible invasion that's likely to occur. I don't consider a pop up to be an invasion. An annoyance perhaps.

Client side languages are a good thing, not evil.Unfortunately scripts do sooo much more.
Lester, good Idea!

[The Master]

However i was thinking that, maybe, just for the users that would like to say thank you. We could set up a Paypal account for donations.

That is a good idea. Another forum im a member of did that and raised enough money to buy a whole new server

[mackrackit]

However i was thinking that, maybe, just for the users that would like to say thank you. We could set up a Paypal account for donations. Crownhill would administer the account and the funds could be used to get something for the admins on Xmas and birthdays.
Sounds like the perfect solution.

Personally, a little something from Hotel Chocolate always seems to make things right for me.

Anything in particular?

[skimask]

Crownhill, are not and have not, asked for donataions or fee's for the provision of this resource.
Good point...
I have to keep reminding myself that MeLabs and Crownhill are 2 separate entities.
One is the software, one is this resource...keep telling myself that...
Can I change my vote now?

[lester]

Melanie, you might like to close this thread??

Crownhill would be very reluctant to charge for this resource. We don't want the inevitable SLA that we'd end up having to enter into with each and every subscriber.

However if we go ahead with the proposed portal, and it seems likely that we will, we'll include a method by which users can make a voluntary donation.

[Melanie]

This was just for my idle curiosity Lester.