Good Idea!

[Darrel Taylor]

At first glance, it sounds wonderful.

I'm tired of rebuilding my website whenever the Hackers feel like playing. Tired of the shared Hosting providers that can't support their 2 million customers. And definitely tired of paying $200/yr, just to have somewhere to put my PBP examples that won't get buried in 50,000 other unrelated posts.

I imagine the above reasons may prevent others from having their own website too.

I welcome the addition!

[lester]

OK, you can see a very good reason for the creation of this new resource.

User web space will be limited. There is no way that we can host multi megabyte web sites under this portal. However we do believe that it should be possible to provide adequate web space for users to upload and maintain picbasic projects. based on the size and scope of projects that we have seen so far.

Some users - lets call them power users, may qualify for additional web space, based upon the quality and quantity of the projects that they publish.

User web sites will be able to link to external sites.

I'd be interested in understanding how much web space a power user such as yourself might require??

[lester]

Darrel,

whilst we decide exactly how and if we produce this new portal. Would it be a good idea to begin pulling together content.

I'm sure that there is a lot of content on the forum and on existing users web sites that would be of interest to users of this forum.

May be something along the lines of a wiki for user projects? see what we have at wiki.picbasic.org (http://wiki.picbasic.org/), we could do the same for this forum. Though it does require some input from users!

[mackrackit]

I like the idea too.
Thank you Lester for thinking about doing this.

[Darrel Taylor]

I'd be interested in understanding how much web space a power user such as yourself might require??

Not counting the CMS, if I add up all the HTML on my website, it's probably only around 300K.

Images ... I go crazy with the size sometimes. But just for PBP projects, with well sized and compressed pictures, I could probably get away with a meg or 2. If I really needed big pictures ... there are other outside options for storing them on the web.

I've never been a big fan of Wiki's.
Don't like other people being able to edit what I post.

Something where each person has their own little protected space sounds much more appealing to me.

[Joe S.]

I've never been a big fan of Wiki's.
Don't like other people being able to edit what I post.

Something where each person has their own little protected space sounds much more appealing to me.
Sounds great Lester, Ditto I agree with Darrel re:wikis. It has sort of been a lip biter for me re: the code example section, I think when someone posts a good example, the thread should stay the way the OP posted it without 6,000 hijackers posting in on it, there are some really good examples there, and they should not be obfuscated by newbie questions, let the newbie start his own thread, and refer to it if needed, IMHO.

[sayzer]

OK, you can see a very good reason for the creation of this new resource.

User web space will be limited. ...

Some users - lets call them power users...

User web sites will be able to link to external sites.
...

Talking about users, can anyone be a user there?
How will that be handled?

If anyone can create a page, whether 100K or 1MB, then there will be a question of the credibility. Soon enough, there will be thousands of pages; and the information will be no different then the forum threads here, I think.

I am thinking in written format here;
Wouldn't it be nice to have some qualification first? If I know that the owner of the page is qualified, then I look at it in a different way. The "idea" then will have a good quality and the web site will be recognized as a credible, created by qualified people etc..

___________________

[lester]

Personally the first qualification i'd like to see would be that the user actually purchased the compiler.....but thats unlikely to happen.

How do you suggest a user qualifies for web space on the site?

Maybe they should upload their project to a temporary site, where the system managers can approve it before its taken live and indexed???

I'd like to see some futher comment on this;

[mat janssen]

Maybe they should upload their project to a temporary site, where the system managers can approve it before its taken live and indexed???
I'd like to see some futher comment on this;

That's a very good idea, otherwise we see all kind of stuf how to put a led on.

I know that all of us in the beginning were glad to put a led on and of, but it is not nessesary to do that for each beginner.

M

[lester]

If 50 users made a small web site each that explained how they set up their first project to flash an LED, is that such a bad thing?

A new user searching for 'LED' in the portal would get a return of many user web apges, all with similar subject matter concerning 'LED', but with code examples, schematics etc (remember that someone took the time to make a web site, its not just anopther forum post)
Surely thats better than what you ahve today if you search the forum for 'LED'???

or maybe not. I dont know, its food for thought.

If we moderate the user sites and don't list them all, doesn't that make a person feel that their effort is not worth while?

[duncan303]

I am very grateful for this free service as it exists, and I of course am very interested as to how it may transform.

please don't misunderstand me but
Personally the first qualification i'd like to see would be that the user actually purchased the compiler.....but thats unlikely to happen.

could that not restrict the creativity of the group, we do tend to be relativly self-policing and are generally quite quick at weedling out those who seek to take advantage. All legitimate members of a group tend to get a sense of who is not a fully paid up associate.

How do you suggest a user qualifies for web space on the site?

Time and money aside: best is probably peer group voting, I could easily flip through the members list and mark those productive contributors whom I believe who could be eligable, but it is not just those who have something that others may want in terms of answers, some may equally want to contribute as being part of a community that simply share a passion(even if it is just blinky), furthermore we must absolutley not forget the youngsters.


Maybe they should upload their project to a temporary site, where the system managers can approve it before its taken live and indexed???

I am always aware that these things do not just happen, somebody will have to dedicate time, particularily if it is shared time we will end up with a commitee. Should we be voting for commitee members, and would my choices want to take the responiblity of a (voluntary?) commitment.
Anyway how does this forum get funded now, not least how is going to funded under the new proposal.

Maybe we could pay a contribution,in some way,for space.





I'd like to see some futher comment on this;

Just some jumbled thoughts I would like to write more but am being hassled to go shopping... back later......I could be some time :D

____

[lester]

OK from the top, the massive piracy of PBP has made it the most widely used Basic compiler for the pic micro. Apart form it being an impossible task, to weed out unlicened users would probably reduce the user group dramatically. so lets not dwell on that ...its not going to happen.

Peer group voting is a possibility. I think we'd have to make all user web sites live and accessable, but we'd have to introduce some kind of rating system based upon peer group review, so that in search results its easy to pick out that have been deemed as good, by the user group........ I'll look into that.

Maybe there should be a comitee of forum moderators and if it goes ahead portal managers. Overall Crownhill would be responsible for the content, but we could allow the site to be managed by elected comittee. Whats the thought on that?

Funding, well currently this resource is funded 100% by Crownhill, not by revenue from the MELPBP compiler or by revenue generated from the forum users. Its true that if we do go ahead witht he Portal we'll need to recover the costs. We will try to ensure that we have a good range of product available for users to purchase and thereby make a small contribution to the costs. But if the truth be known this forum and any future portal will be funded from the revenue generated by sales of Proton - the compiler and the supporting hardware. That said, its not an issue for us, we want to see PIC Basic use grow, there is a place in the market for the Stamp, PBP, Proton and something else, so as long as we are around we'll support aany competent iteration of PIC Basic, whatever the flavour.

There is a clear migration path, Stamp, PBP, Proton, somthing else. Somthing else may come from MEL, or Crownhill or some other entity, regardless, if its a decent iteration of PIC Basic Crownhill will be there to support it and we'd hope to put that support in the portal thats under discussion here.

As long as there are people out there buying a PIC Basic compiler, we'll be receiveing revenue from our products and so long as thats happening we'll provide these resources for free, as we do now.

While we are on the subject, I'll say now that we will not promote Proton on this forum, this forum is for users of MEL PBP, users of other compilers have their own forum. Likewise the PBP portal will be ther for PBP users. Our intention will be to advertise Crownhill on the portal, NOT a specific compiler.

Just to be clear, this forum will remain as it is, a PBP forum.

[mat janssen]

If 50 users made a small web site each that explained how they set up their first project to flash an LED, is that such a bad thing?

A new user searching for 'LED' in the portal would get a return of many user web apges, all with similar subject matter concerning 'LED', but with code examples, schematics etc (remember that someone took the time to make a web site, its not just anopther forum post)
Surely thats better than what you ahve today if you search the forum for 'LED'???

or maybe not. I dont know, its food for thought.

If we moderate the user sites and don't list them all, doesn't that make a person feel that their effort is not worth while?


OK. Lester you are right. It's true I was also very happy when I could a led flash in the beginning.

[Pic_User]

My Vote: YES!
Best idea I have heard this year.

[skimask]

Personally the first qualification i'd like to see would be that the user actually purchased the compiler.....but thats unlikely to happen.
That's one item that ticked me off since day one...
I don't know about the rest of the group, but I've still got my PBP receipts and/or webpage printouts, not to mention the PBP manual. Perhaps a picture of one or the other...or the original CD (or 3.5" floppy :) )

[sayzer]

....

I'd like to see some futher comment on this;

Lester can make (chose) a group of people. There can be categories of groups.
Users can first upload their code examples to a temporary site, as mentioned above, to be review and rated by those people (explanations, logic flow, long or short etc...)
If the rate is over say 8, then the code gets access to be published on the main site.

Since the incoming codes will be monitored, they can be listed under the same or similar codes. For example, there can be at least ten different ways of making flip flops. But, users can submit hundreds of them in which the majority is the same.

Also, when I said qualification above, my idea was different.
I meant that if a visitor knows that the code is written by a qualified person then the web site will have a distinguished position among other web sites.

As there are good quality of materials, there are also good quality of codes and code writers. Let this site be the pioneer for it.

--------------------------

[Bruce]

Hi Lester,

It sounds like a good idea to me. It could save folks a lot of time when looking for code
examples, schematics, and links to things that get answered over-and-over again.

Definitely sounds more organized.

Will this help reduce or eliminate the aggrevating SPAM posts?

[lester]

RE Spam:

the activity of melanie and darrel seem to be keeping Spam well under control.

I upgraded the system last week and apart form some down time due to some overload on Thursday, - spamers i think - we have had no extreeme issues recently.

Spam will always be an issue on this forum, its an open forum.

The surest way to eliminate spam, would be to tie posting down to licensed users and allow any one to browse. However, we only have access to the details of users that have purchased from us, so the only way to impliment a lock down would be to have MELabs and all their resellers validate requests for licenced user status. Something we'd be happy to collaborate on if agreement could be reached with everyone involved.

[duncan303]

Yikes!! I should know never to send a post without properly previewing it.

with reference to the "… I could easily flip through the members list and mark those productive contributors whom I believe who could be eligible…," the “I” was intended to be subjective in that any of us could go through the list , I hope that I did not give the impression that I was proposing that either I exclusively should present a list or even that I should participate in any type of committee, but simply that somehow the forum users collectively might be able to vote somehow.

there is a system of flagging a particular post, used on other forums, whereby a member can thank a poster for the helpfulness of that particular contribution, could that be adapted from thanking to flagging a post as being of interest to the forum as well. Then the member’s own forum statistic used in someway to provide an authorisation to further privileges.

I hate words sometimes.....just give me 35 instructions

before I get my coat, I refer to the recent expanded inclusion of external links at the bottom of the pages, some of which seem is if they may have revenue generating hits on them, I confess I did not hit Hackaway, but if it appears that the forum could possibly be funded as a loss leader in anticipation of the upwards migration path to proton, perhaps some form of user generated income, through external links, could contribute towards the cost of this forum in its own right.

Probably digging a bigger hole in the wrong place?

I’ll get my coat………

[RussMartin]

I respectfully recommend that accountability be a criterion for posting, especially if any aspect of "peer review" is intended.

The following, I'm sure, will draw screams of protest . . .

I suggest: No anonymous nor pseudonymous ("handle") entries. To qualify for space, a real name, mailing address and/or telephone, and verified E-mail that is up to date.

Not all of this information need be available to the casual browser, of course, but perhaps to the registered user and certainly to any and all administrators/managers/proctors.

Whether a dissemination of information or a sharing of ignorance, hiding should not be an option.

[skimask]

The following, I'm sure, will draw screams of protest . . .
I suggest: No anonymous nor pseudonymous ("handle") entries. To qualify for space, a real name, mailing address and/or telephone, and verified E-mail that is up to date.

Normally, I, for one, wouldn't have a problem with that, full disclosure and all that (no screams of protect here, just a bit of a 'Wwwweeeellllll....I don't know.....'). However, in my situation, identity theft (and other associated happenings) have been a bit of a problem in the past.
But obviously, you're right, full disclosure to the right group of folks, is a must to keep the 'crap' out.

Another thought...if this kicks up as anticipated, wouldn't it become something similar to just another 'Hack-A-Day' or 'MakeZine' type site?

[Joe S.]

I respectfully recommend that accountability be a criterion for posting, especially if any aspect of "peer review" is intended.

The following, I'm sure, will draw screams of protest . . .

I suggest: No anonymous nor pseudonymous ("handle") entries. To qualify for space, a real name, mailing address and/or telephone, and verified E-mail that is up to date.

Not all of this information need be available to the casual browser, of course, but perhaps to the registered user and certainly to any and all administrators/managers/proctors.

Whether a dissemination of information or a sharing of ignorance, hiding should not be an option.
Yes I agree Russ, but to clarify, available to Crownhill, not to the public.
Normally, I, for one, wouldn't have a problem with that, full disclosure and all that (no screams of protect here, just a bit of a 'Wwwweeeellllll....I don't know.....'). However, in my situation, identity theft (and other associated happenings) have been a bit of a problem in the past.
But obviously, you're right, full disclosure to the right group of folks, is a must to keep the 'crap' out.

Another thought...if this kicks up as anticipated, wouldn't it become something similar to just another 'Hack-A-Day' or 'MakeZine' type site?
As long as the original forum continues on, as a related but seperate entity, I think whats in YOURSPACE ( play on words ) is not going to devoure the forum, to that end there should be some kind of seperation, I look at some other forums which have so many sections you just get lost in there.br One more thought, is to give the OP of a thread authority to close the thread to further posting, so as to avoid threadjacking issues where someone starts out with trying to flash LEDs and the post finishes up with slot car controllers because some poster, usually new doesn't know how or want to open their own thread. Just my thoughts. Thanks.

[Darrel Taylor]

Just guessing here ... but I would assume those pages would have similar "Report Abuse" type buttons that anyone can press.

If they don't use the site properly, they'll lose the site.
Just like all the other spammers.

I don't think you need personal information to sign up.
Maybe just a threshold of 30 or so relevant posts in the forum. (To keep the AutoBots out).

[Ioannis]

Sounds good! Go ahead Lester.

About the abuse, it is up to admins but also up to us the users to protect the portal. It is our intellectual property besides.

I am sure if it is well structured, will help a lot to find good and usefull infos, instead of searching through tons of replies...

Ioannis

[lester]

Duncan303, the links at the bottom of the forum were put there by me.

I based them on the popular exits used by forum users and some popular sites.

They are NOT there to raise revenue.

We used to ahve links that could generate click micro payments....but they didn't.

Its unlikely that the migration path to Proton will ever pay for this forum , let alone the cost of the proposed portal.

10 USD per annum per active user would pay for this forum and the proposed portal. I'm sure that crownhill and the existing admins would like the income.

There gain if all PBP users were to buy their upgrades form Crownhill, they could also fund this forum.....but neither of the above funding idea are likely to happen, so i'm afaraid that you're stuck with what we have to offer.

Unless ofcourse the user base of this forum wants to propose a funding option that would work.....hey, you dont think there's a way to make money out of this do you????

[Acetronics]

Hi, Lester

I think the idea is not new , and more and more forums I am member of are turning to same politics.

Thinking to it, I must agree it becomes a must ... a survival must.

Good thing to carry on.

Alain

[T.Jackson]

hey, you dont think there's a way to make money out of this do you????

Sell them expert advice. A lot of sites are doing this.

I pay on average $500 per unit at Uni.

$20 for a one year subscription to their own personal tutor seems like peanuts.

[sayzer]

I think that the "original" idea is moving from its origin.

-----------------------

[lester]

I dont think we are moving from the original Idea. The idea still stands.

All that has happened here is that the method of funding has been questioned.

Maybe a new thread should be strated (paid subscription).

Over the years - since i stated the support list / forum, It seems to me that, there are those who are willing to contribute and build, giving their time freely and on the whole they are also wiling to pay for the resource onto which they contribute.

and

there are those who want everything for free and who make no useful contribution...but do draw on the resource quite heavily.

Ideally we should have a system that rewards the contributors fairly and charges the users who make no contribution.

BUT, its all just to complex and overbearing, so my solution is to take some of our revenue and use it to fund the resources that everybody seems to demand and some contribute to.

I'm happy with the current funding situation. The proposed portal will undoubtedly cost more than the current forum, but with the offers of assistance that we ahve so far i'm sure that it will not be too costly in resource and financially we'll cover the costs.

My only regret is that we provide a resource that provides serviceto people running unlicensed copies of PBP.

[Acetronics]

The following, I'm sure, will draw screams of protest . . .

I suggest: No anonymous nor pseudonymous ("handle") entries. To qualify for space, a real name, mailing address and/or telephone, and verified E-mail that is up to date.

.

Hi, Russ

Last year, our Model boat forum encountered such problems ( from members + spammers ) ... the solutions taken are the same as you show ...

Some general sections are open to "outside" reading only.

plus, some sections are only opened to registered members. ( The "Midnightbar", where respect is the first law ... , sell and buy ... links.)

Download and viewing attached also limited to members.

No more Heavy problems ... sometimes, misunderstanding leads to comic situations ... but moderators ( or even members ... ) are here !!!

Everybody "aboard" is happy with these mods ... and fine humour is always here in the posts !!!

Statistics show less members ... but real members ...

Alain

[Luciano]

Hi,

(Devil's advocate)

Purpose of this forum is to limit the number of e-mails and
phone calls to the support people of MicroEngineering Labs.

Why pay an employee to answer phone calls and write e-mails when
you can find people willing to do that for free?

Please send the bill to MicroEngineering Labs.

Best regards,

Luciano

[Ioannis]

Ideally we should have a system that rewards the contributors fairly and charges the users who make no contribution.
...
My only regret is that we provide a resource that provides serviceto people running unlicensed copies of PBP.

Hi Lester.

Concernig the condribution, I cannot claim too much on this, although I feel that I like to help out others. May be I got more help from the forum that I gave.

Anyway, we all gather around here to help for free and I believe no one has ever thought off getting money out of it. I am sure that this project cost money, but on the other hand this forum is a good advertisment on its own for the product called PBC or PBP. So money returns eventually.

No doubt that, there are members with copied programs and there is nothing that anyone can do about it, except expressing what this really costs at the end.

But, if paid subscription are to become reallity, (I will of course still be member here), I am sure that the people left in the forum/portal, will be counted on the fingers of our two hands.

Ioannis

[T.Jackson]

Bloody devils alright.

You want two in the head or three in the chest.

[Joe S.]

Bloody devils alright.

You want two in the head or three in the chest.
Given Australia's gun laws, you are talking about poking someone with your finger, no?

[skimask]

Given Australia's gun laws, you are talking about poking someone with your finger, no?
Me thinks more smack than anything...

[duncan303]

Duncan303, the links at the bottom of the forum were put there by me.

I based them on the popular exits used by forum users and some popular sites.

They are NOT there to raise revenue.

I feel I am making a total hash of trying to make a contribution to this thread. I value this forum greatly, I want follow it through it's progressions.

I am more than happy for the links, especially if they provide micro revenue if they did then I would use them simply to help provide funding.

We used to ahve links that could generate click micro payments....but they didn't.

It is a shame that the revenue then is negligible.
Its unlikely that the migration path to Proton will ever pay for this forum , let alone the cost of the proposed portal. I can accept that, the last I know of went at least 2 years ago.

10 USD per annum per active user would pay for this forum and the proposed portal. I'm sure that crownhill and the existing admins would like the income. great thanks this is a really useful bit of info. another question: I guess 50 active users is that about right?

There gain if all PBP users were to buy their upgrades form Crownhill, they could also fund this forum.....but neither of the above funding idea are likely to happen, so i'm afaraid that you're stuck with what we have to offer. Hang on a second, hold your horses, lets split this section up.

Can people help me with some history here.

Melabs creates a compiler and markets it globally. It actively markets schools and colleges but neglects to introduce any copy protection.

wholly independent of melabs a SUG mailing list is created, Melabs are obviously happy to direct users both demo version, pirated and licenced to the SUG, as they do to this day. Melabs clearly benefit from this symbiotic relationship in both sales and less hassle in individual email support. I am not surprised but I now know that melabs does not provide financial help with the forum, on the basis that it never created the SUG, I am not privy to the full politics here maybe people argued and fell out(it happens a lot) .

There is no doubt that melabs has financially benefited from this forum, no argument on this point.

Melabs Business model is a bit hippy peace and love, but because of this lets say the unlicensed users outnumber the licensed by 500 to 1. Now lets try and guess the number of licensed active users, and don't say less than 10 :D.

Ill get to the point.... Make use of the piracy

We lobby Melabs and propose that they consider distributing upgrades solely through Crownhill, or we all (10) just agree to do so, those of us who are not crownhill customers agree to provide crownhill evidence of purchase invoices in which our licence is vested and option to pay a contribution towards the running costs of the forum. We would have to work around the green manual problem especially for those to whom crownhill is international, maybe melabs would also agree to provide a copyright concession?.

I visit the site mostly as a guest and only log on to occasionally post, would it be possible to have two interfaces on the forum where guests and unlicensed members are bombarded mercilessly with micro hits ads and anything else we can throw at them. Would that also cause problems to the autobots, because my thoughts and sympathy goes out, as always, to those who have to deal with Spam on our behalf, particularly to Admins Melanie and Darrel a big thankyou.


Therefore the members who can provide evidence of legitimate licences to crownhill, the owners of the forum, have the option to turn off the ads and get all these privileges to which the original thread referred.?


Anyway how did crownhill end up carrying the can?

Have melabs actually been approached by anybody and asked if they would consider contributing to the base costs of the forum?

What about using the LGM Little Green Manual, devices being the first word on page 12 version 7/07

Jeez I should be using flowcode to structure my points what a mess but I will post it anyway.


I actually came back cos I left my hat behind......................


______

[skimask]

another question: I guess 50 active users is that about right?
Somebody pointed out the 'Members List' to me about a month ago, so I just took a quick look at it...

2,985 users (or is it 3,678?)
8,812 threads...
62,736 posts...
If you just look at the top 10 post'ers, they total up to 21,470 of those 62,736, over 33% of the total made up by 10 people.
A total of 34 users have contributed 31,374 posts out of the total 62,736 posts.
1,407 out of the 2,985 (3,678?) have contributed more than 1 post, 528 of them, 10 posts or more.
If a person actually spent the $250 (or $100USD) for PicBasic/PicBasicPro, you'd figure they would keep using it and therefore keep having questions.
Either that or we would have 2,900 experts, with the occassional 'newb' popping in, soon on his/her way to becoming an expert.

We lobby Melabs and propose that they consider distributing upgrades solely......
(etc.etc)
In my job, we have what we call 'trusted agents'... No, not that crazy 'secret squirrel' stuff with guys running around in disguise and all that... They're people who are trusted with certain bits and pieces of information during exercises and what-not. For instance, the last exercise we had up here, I was a 'trusted agent'. My job was to walk into an office and pretend to fall down and have a massive heart attack and die (no kidding, that was my job for an hour that afternoon!) and watch how the office participant responded. Only 3 people knew I was going to do this and that's all that needed to know.
My point is that while I don't know anybody here personally, I think I can pretty much guess who has a licensed, good copy of PBP, and I'm sure a number of the other users here could do the same thing, for that matter, at the same time, we can pretty much guess who's got a pirated version of PBP2.41/2.43 or whatever. Maybe a few 'trusted agents' could take a load of the load off the admins. It works around here pretty good.

[duncan303]

Hi Skimask

The whos online is usefull for displaying proportions of members/viagrabots/spyders/guests I have found it does not change that much over time.

why does it not surprise me that you have had employment dying on the job! I am almost speechless although I guess others may not be..............What style of death did you choose, agonised or passive?

I mentioned earlier in the thread that weedling out the unlicenced was sometimes undertaken by the group. but why should it be done by qualitative analysis when it is fairly simple to quantify it. Our sister forum does not have these issues. Furthermore we suspect that the majority of requests for help are unlicenced it is only when a user oversteps the mark does and takes advantage that it become an issue. Therefore it has remained the perogative of the helper to determine validation. Of course to a pirate this is nirvana, free software and free customised individual support. There is a name for the symptom that permits the helper to continue to be taken advantage of, in that they derive self gratifying pleasure in helping.

But with such an unresticted distribution of PBP out there........................


_____

[Joe S.]

Hi Skimask

Our sister forum does not have these issues. Furthermore we suspect that the majority of requests for help are unlicenced it is only when a user oversteps the mark does and takes advantage that it become an issue. Therefore it has remained the perogative of the helper to determine validation. Of course to a pirate this is nirvana, free software and free customised individual support. There is a name for the symptom that permits the helper to continue to be taken advantage of, in that they derive self gratifying pleasure in helping.

But with such an unresticted distribution of PBP out there........................


_____
Hi Duncan303,
Proton has those little dongle thingies, I am grateful PBP does not. The dongle is a primary reason I will not try Proton, I absolutely hate those things, I am willing to pay a little more not to have to use them (to offset the stealing) than to have to use them. Most of the third world users are likely using pirate copies, and for the most part givin the " FIRST WORLDS" history of exploitation, I am OK with that. What really rips me is when some well to do First Worlder feels like he has to steal a measely $250 program because he is a cheapass (that's not cussing it's a technical term) skinflint rectum robbing nogoodnick. So Ya, I would give up a few GreenStamps for a little WebSpace here if it came to that and if there was a easy to transfer the funds (Paypal?).

[skimask]

why does it not surprise me that you have had employment dying on the job! I am almost speechless although I guess others may not be..............What style of death did you choose, agonised or passive?
Like I said, it was an 'exercise', a test... My (our) job was to evaluate others with me being the simulated victim. And it was a boring 'death', instant massive heart attack, as soon as they got to the point where they started CPR, I was replaced by the 'dummy', then all I had to do was watch, not necessarily the person doing the 'CPR', but watching to see what others in the room were doing.

[T.Jackson]

That's very interesting Jeremy, and it sounds like a massive liability.

I actually did CPR many years ago at Tafe (compulsory aspect of the electronics trade course)

The sad part is: I think if I was put on the spot to do it, it may be administered incorrectly, because it was only a few hours worth of CPR that was taught, such a long time ago.

I find it difficult to recall what I don't practically apply. But once I apply it in a real world event I never forget. I'm probably no different from most people in this regard.

[skimask]

That's very interesting Jeremy, and it sounds like a massive liability.
And of course all we were doing was watching the person doing the CPR. Don't pay any attention to the people taking over for this 'person' who was incapacitated. Never mind the 'people' that were 'freaking out' on the sidelines. Ignore the fact that the 'ambulance' was able to make it to the location because of a simulated 'traffic jam'. Disregard the amount of equipment and gear that all of the people in the room were wearing making the actual job of CPR, much less moving in general difficult. Oh, and did I mention there was a 'power outage', so all the group had was emergency lighting?
I'll give you one guess at what I think is a liability...


Proton has those little dongle thingies, I am grateful PBP does not. The dongle is a primary reason I will not try Proton
Does Proton allow multiple installations, but only one use PC at a time?

[T.Jackson]

I feel the most serious liability is: what if the ordeal actually gave one of the bystanders a "real heart attack"

You always need to think of the possible consequences for absolutely everything that you do in this world.

[RussMartin]

Hi, Russ

Last year, our Model boat forum encountered such problems ( from members + spammers ) ... the solutions taken are the same as you show ...

Some general sections are open to "outside" reading only.

plus, some sections are only opened to registered members. ( The "Midnightbar", where respect is the first law ... , sell and buy ... links.)

Download and viewing attached also limited to members.

I have encountered this same kind of approach in a couple of other forums of which I am a regular member and it has worked well there, too. However, in both, registration for the "special privileges" is tied to something verifiable, like a product registration number or amateur radio license call sign.

An amateur radio forum to which I belong has a PayPal button for voluntary contributions, and I know it gets used.

I'd gladly chip in $10, $20 or even $30 USD per year to help perpetuate this forum. (Heck, I have magazine subscriptions and other memberships that run more than that. I spend a lot more than that on beer and cigarettes in a month!)

I'd like to help, in whatever capacity, because I think this forum is a tremendous resource. I frequently search or scan it without logging in when I'm looking for information, ideas, or solutions.

[Acetronics]

The dongle is a primary reason I will not try Proton, I absolutely hate those things, I am willing to pay a little more not to have to use them (to offset the stealing) than to have to use them.


Hi, Joe

The system used by Mikroelektronika is rather simple ... you Download a limited version - limited enough for students and beginners use - , you pay your registration, They send you a KEY Number ( that wipes off the limitation ) closely linked to your computer config.

This way, registrations are centralized by MKE ... and you just have to ask for a new key, if changing your HDD ...

National Instruments is more vicious ... you need to re-insert your key Number for the smallest computer change ( even a memory extension !!! )

But, If you hate Dongles ... it also exists "soft" ones ... to replace Out of Use old ones i.e..

see HASP site, they give the link.



Now, Spreading PbP without any copy protection was generous, but surely will lead to economical suicide ...

Alain

[T.Jackson]

I can see things like software copy protection becoming real flash in the not too distant future.

Biometric technologies will be the answer ...


Finger print recognition
Face recognition
DNA

[Joe S.]

Hi, Joe

The system used by Mikroelektronika is rather simple ... you Download a limited version - limited enough for students and beginners use - , you pay your registration, They send you a KEY Number ( that wipes off the limitation ) closely linked to your computer config.

This way, registrations are centralized by MKE ... and you just have to ask for a new key, if changing your HDD ...

National Instruments is more vicious ... you need to re-insert your key Number for the smallest computer change ( even a memory extension !!! )

But, If you hate Dongles ... it also exists "soft" ones ... to replace Out of Use old ones i.e..

see HASP site, they give the link.



Now, Spreading PbP without any copy protection was generous, but surely will lead to economical suicide ...

Alain
Locks only keep Honest people honest, theives will break the lock most every time, as far as the third world goes, they probably would just use something else cause if you are eating rocks to fill your belly, you are not going to waste (invest) money on the future, understand I am not defending the practice, just a realist. Bill Gates said" we already know China is using Windows, now we need to figure out how to get them to pay for it", or something very close to that. Anyhow I am sure there are bittorrents where an unscrupulouse person can get it if they want and if the program uses dongles then to be sure there is a crack available, I have seen Mastercam XII work without a dongle, or hasp and that's not $250 software.

[T.Jackson]

I think one of the toughest copy protection schemas of all time is Capcom's (you know the legends that produced the worldwide smash hit Street Fighter II?) -- CP2 system encryption.

It took determined hackers literally years to code the emulation for CPS2 games. At first they wrote it off as impossible actually. The key was riding right along side the data, when they discovered this they got their big break.

Now the Chinese sell the pirated games on eBay in these 1000-in-1 game boxes.

[peu]

Locks only keep Honest people honest, theives will break the lock most every time, as far as the third world goes, they probably would just use something else cause if you are eating rocks to fill your belly

Yeah... we thirdworlders are crooks by definition... <rolleyes>

Anyway...

On the spamming issue, a captcha to prevent mass registrations does not cut it anymore, they are crackable, in the last months I saw different methods for validating users, for example you have to look at 10 photos and select which ones are females/flowers/animals etc this is more difficult to automate than captcha recognition.

Also, you can force new users to read for 2 or 3 days before giving them posting privileges, or you can disable the ability of posting links for new users.

On the money issue, you can start receiving donations or subscriptions, for example, you can give more PM space for donating users, or you can allow images or links in signatures on a subscription basis.

In a nutshell, you can be creative to improve things and not disrupt the posting userbase by changing dramatically the playing field :)

Good Luck!


Pablo

[Sneaky-geek]

This is to ALL of the fine people who: Manage; Administrate OR use this site.
Ihave deen following this site for over a year now, in late September I BOUGHT from MELabs the Super developers bundle and some spare '877A's.

I am having a riot learning. The first thing was reread tfm untill you are cross eyed (then have another cup'o joe, 2) find postings/threads (in NO particular order) by Melanie, DT. Skimask, Mr E and a whole lot of others. Finally then post questions, gratefully explore replies.

Now as to the Root Subject of this thread; A small fee to ANY USER that can Provide PROOF OF PURCHASE (LEGITIMATE SOURCES) will/would be granted FULL acess to website.The Pirates would be limited to downloading ony. Trial version users are given limited acess/privileges.
As to quantity of post determining not (ifeel) the best idea

My real name is Terry Garrett
My call sign is K9HA

The last two statements can be easily verified.
l

[Bruce]

The two folks that really bust thier butts here to make this a nice playground for us all are Darell & Melanie.

So if there's anything that's aimed at making things easier for either one/both of these folks, then I'm 100% for it.

And a BIG hats' off to Lester. I'm not really sure just why he devotes the time or resources to a forum that competes
with Crownhills PDS compiler, but that's a moot point since he does it any way.

And, I totally agree that some form of validation would be great, but I'm not sure it would be do-able with MeLabs current policy of no protection whatsoever on thier software.

We would be happy to validate users, but we're only 1 distributor. I couldn't even imagine trying to get every single PBP distributor involved is this.

Until MeLabs institutes some form of protection scheme for PBP, I would not even consider a user validation attempt.

[duncan303]

The two folks that really bust thier butts here to make this a nice playground for us all are Darell & Melanie.

So if there's anything that's aimed at making things easier for either one/both of these folks, then I'm 100% for it.

And a BIG hats' off to Lester. I'm not really sure just why he devotes the time or resources to a forum that competes
with Crownhills PDS compiler, but that's a moot point since he does it any way.




Here here.



And, I totally agree that some form of validation would be great, but I'm not sure it would be do-able with MeLabs current policy of no protection whatsoever on thier software.

We would be happy to validate users, but we're only 1 distributor. I couldn't even imagine trying to get every single PBP distributor involved is this.

Until MeLabs institutes some form of protection scheme for PBP, I would not even consider a user validation attempt.

What if you recieved an email from a customer along the lines of:

Dear Bruce,
I would very much like to join a forum dedicated to support the software bundle I puchased from you some time ago on the xx xxx xx reference xx xxx. would it be possible for you to email validation@picbasic.nat simply to confirm that my user name xxxxxx which I use on the forum holds an authenticated licence.

Please would you also be able to keep me informed of any purchaseable update to the software.

Kind Regards

Duncan303

I know that you, as you have indicated, would respond kindly to this approach, considering also that no data protection breached etc etc.

if it transpired that a reseller had difficulty in confirming invoice(due to destroying company records,liquidation,etc ) then other approaches could be considered, and of course there would alsways be persons who would attempt to circumvent but surely this could form a basis of validation.


anyway back to half term, just off to make puppets... now if I could just quickly hook up a couple of solenoids before a responsible adult chastises me for making things too complicated.....

[T.Jackson]

Tell me there's a contract on him and I'll take it.

[mister_e]

Trent,
is there any way you could post something else than it? At very least closer to PICBasic, Microcontroller, or everything else which is related/needed by this forum?

[Acetronics]

Trent,
is there any way you could post something else than it? At very least closer to PICBasic, Microcontroller, or everything else which is related/needed by this forum?

Hi, Steve,

I'm afraid you're asking too much ... lots too much !

ROFL

Alain

[boroko]

Lester and all,
I have been living at this site recently and get a bit nervous when the major players start asking questions like the recent fare. Clouds on the horizon concern me.
The issues are real, and I don't have a good answer. I would gladly send $ to the people that help me, but how do you do that for someone that posted something 4 years ago that you found useful? Seems the answer is to support the forum directly to keep it alive. (Where is that PayPal button).

Anyway, the reason for this post was this: I have been BUYING my versions of PBP directly from Jeff for years and he knows me and doesn't have to look up my receipt. I don't know if I even still have it. How would I convey that credibility to Crownhill ? Does it matter? I don't know Jeff's reasoning behind leaving it open. I'm sure it is a difficult decision. I don't know if he or Charles ever spent any time lurking around here, but, I can't imagine why they wouldn't look in even if they didn't want to be recognized. Hey...wait a minute... Maybe one of the regulars is really JEFF,,, AH HA.. gigs up... we figured you out!!! Now which one? ;-)

Anyway, the bottom line is that I would like to do what I can to keep the skids greased so that this keeps moving. Way to valuable to let it drift into the ether.

And I am working hard on a project that I can put up for others. For once I'd like to feel like a contributor.

Bye for now
Bo

[Joe S.]

Lester and all,
I have been living at this site recently and get a bit nervous when the major players start asking questions like the recent fare. Clouds on the horizon concern me.
The issues are real, and I don't have a good answer. I would gladly send $ to the people that help me, but how do you do that for someone that posted something 4 years ago that you found useful? Seems the answer is to support the forum directly to keep it alive. (Where is that PayPal button).

Anyway, the reason for this post was this: I have been BUYING my versions of PBP directly from Jeff for years and he knows me and doesn't have to look up my receipt. I don't know if I even still have it. How would I convey that credibility to Crownhill ? Does it matter? I don't know Jeff's reasoning behind leaving it open. I'm sure it is a difficult decision. I don't know if he or Charles ever spent any time lurking around here, but, I can't imagine why they wouldn't look in even if they didn't want to be recognized. Hey...wait a minute... Maybe one of the regulars is really JEFF,,, AH HA.. gigs up... we figured you out!!! Now which one? ;-)

Anyway, the bottom line is that I would like to do what I can to keep the skids greased so that this keeps moving. Way to valuable to let it drift into the ether.

And I am working hard on a project that I can put up for others. For once I'd like to feel like a contributor.

Bye for now
Bo
Hi Boroko, Please allow me my opinions: :)
1. If you ask good questions, you are a contributor.
2. If you bought from MeLabs, as I did, they have you on file.
3. I agree, this forum IS valuable.
4. Looking forward to seeing that project . . . keep up the good work.

[boroko]

Joe S, Thanks for the kind words.

The project has shown up as fragments that have been in different areas as I try and figure out different portions. What I have so far is in: www.picbasic.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=66098&posted=1#post66098

As it takes form and becomes a bit more stable, I will present it with the purpose and hardware that make it a bit more relevant.

The short story: a way to communicate and control over existing 2 wire loop while distributing power also. I'm excited as it is starting to come together thanks to the help that exists on the forum.

I have paid significant sums for someone to write PIC code when a project got too much above the "hello world" state. I have been playing with PICs for a long time. Too long, I'm looking at a Microchip reference from '93 on the bookshelf. I have made repeated attempts to get above barely functional, but usually got frustrated and left it again for a while. The people on this forum have made it possible for me to try again to eat the elephant. It is rewarding to start to understand it enough to take on more meaty projects. I had an interesting discussion the other day, I'm basically a hardware guy that needs software to make my hardware do anything, He is a software guy (large scale) that needs hardware for a place to run his software. We could both stand to learn from each other.

Have a good day
Bo